Thread: Saw Sharpening Needed

Originally Posted by Heavansabove

You might want to go to the next TTTG workshop (at Brush Farm - Eastwood) on saw sharpening
http://www.tttg.org.au/php/WorkshopView.php?EventId=55.

A good suggestion, but do plenty of homework first!! You don't get the chance for a lot of personal contact and direction, (from my experience anyway), but its a good chance to just finish off any home research you do if you are armed with the right questions..

Originally Posted by IanW

Hmm, I feel there's some convoluted logic in there, Paul. If I'm going to saw something substantial, I may as well choose a saw that is both comfortable to use, and cuts fast.
...
So yes, you could use hardpoints for fine joinery, but for me it would take much of the the joy out of doing woodwork as a hobby....

I admit to making background assumptions about the applications in question.
I don't want to use a good saw on the sort of plywood I have around here ... and probably not for cutting some ends off of recycled timber to save bothering with three nails in a mitre cut.

I'm not sure fine joinery was mentioned ... but maybe you know Chris' work.

In 'regular' hand saws many of the hard points (when new), can fulfill the latter requirement, very few the former, their handles are not at all comfy in my hand, and most are too damn short for a comfortable sawing rythym.

Handles are definitely better on 'real' saws ... even a 1940s/50s blocky one is quite useable.
I was assuming there wouldn't be extended usage.
But then again, you could make a blocky kinda handle that suits your hand and fit the hardpoint blade
... or use the laminated handle idea to make fitting the blade easy
... or stick to a straight cut handle and trim the sawblade to suit.

Only talking handsaws here ... although I did make a strange shelfy thing 15yrs ago with a plastic handled backsaw.
Nothing 'fine' about that 'tho

Yeah, I'm not trying to be (too much of) a saw snob, Paul. There is a difference between a saw that will do the job, and a saw that will do the job well, and you only need to spend a few bucks extra to enjoy a pretty substntial difference. A 'decent' saw doesn't have to cost $300 or anything like it, and the rate of improvement diminishes as the price increases (which appears to be one of those inviolable laws of nature.. ). I keep a hard-point in the back of the ute, for those occasions out on the road where a saw is handy for a few quick docking cuts. They will survive a brush with a nail, far better than a fileable saw, though serious contact definitely takes the gloss off the cut. But I sure as heck wouldn't even think of ripping a 2" thick plank of hardwood with one, unless I was really desperate!

I'm beginning to think that many folks expect too much from hand tools in general. While a well-balanced, beautifully sharpened saw is a joy to use, there are ways to live with a rough-cutting beast & still manage fine work. I learnt my basic woodworking from blokes who'd served their time while hand work was still a big part of each day, and we were shown ways to get around the limitations of tools to end up with fine joints. One of these days, when I've got nothing better to do, I'm going to try something I've been mulling about for a long time. I'd like to go to Bunnies or somewhere similar, & buy a basic set of tools at the cheapest possible price, fettle them up to as good as they can be, then try to make something fairly demanding with them. I have in mind, something like this, done entirely by hand tools (even the 'turning'). occ table1.jpg, or maybe this, which is a bit more ambitious: occ table2.jpg

These contain pretty much all the basic elements of woodworking, the sliding dovetails for the legs being the most demanding part. I may fail miserably, but I reckon it would be fun to try. It could start a whole new genre of competitive woodworking....

Cheers,

Sounds like there is a market niche for someone like Lee Valley to market a panel type saw with a nice handle and a disposable blade like the Japanese mass produced saws, but Western style. Even a 'kit' with rip and crosscut blades ready to slot into the handle.

I've tried the Bahco interchangeable saws and the one I got had 'fail' all over it - it felt like someone had applied the powder coating to the blade AFTER it had been sharpened, black blade so you can't use reflection to check sawing at a right angle and the grip may be 'ergonomic' for a target pistol but its pretty poor for a hand saw.

Originally Posted by IanW

There are two impediments to overcome if you want to sharpen your own saws. The first is getting hold of decent files -
The second, and possibly more daunting problem, is that if you are a weekend wood warrior with a couple of saws, you probably only need to sharpen very infrequently, so you'll never get much practice. Every time you tackle the job, it's like starting over!
Cheers,

Ian

Ain't that the truth.

I could add a third impediment and that is being able to see the teeth. Without using a magnifier on a headband I'm absolutely lost: Just can't see teeth smaller than 5ppi.

I'm also absolutely with you on the length of hand saws. To develop a smooth,effortless, sawing rhythm the saw must be 26" long at the minimum. Hardpoint saws are rarely this long and much more expensive than their short brethren.

Also I don't believe I started to become barely competent until I had sharpened about twenty saws. My early efforts were inconsistent at best and pitiful at worst. Now after many saws (I lost count after forty) it is no longer a daunting process, although I confess I am procrastinating over a Disston D17 Double Duty that I have to prepare for sale.

I am considering doing the 15 minute psycho session in the corner of the workshop before tackling the combination or fleams and rakes.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

...... My early efforts were inconsistent at best and pitiful at worst....

That would have been a very generous appraisal of my first few goes at it! I do agree that it takes a quite a few before you can begin to feel like you are truly 'getting it', and develop a rhythm & stroke that delivers really consistent results. However, with care, you can still make a dull saw cut better on your first try, so don't be put off by the minor difficulty, all you would-be sharpeners - take the challenge!

I didn't include visual impediments in my list, Paul, because given the average age of the Forum members, I assume that most of us will need some artificial boosting of the optical powers, & will have addressed that already. But I should have mentioned it - I don't think I could manage even a 5tpi these days, if anyone stole my Opti...... !

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

There are two impediments to overcome if you want to sharpen your own saws. The first is getting hold of decent files - ......

I know there are threads around here on files for saws but I've been wondering in this age of technology if there is some new ceramic or diamond impregnated option to the traditional file?

Originally Posted by Fuzzie

I know there are threads around here on files for saws but I've been wondering in this age of technology if there is some new ceramic or diamond impregnated option to the traditional file?

If there are such things capable of cutting saw teeth, they are a well-kept secret Fuzzie.

I have tried diamond files out of curiosity, thinking they would last longer when cutting in new teeth. The cheapies shed diamonds from their corners quicker than pollies shed pre-election promises, so you don't get very far with them. Even the moderately expensive one I tried didn't last for more than a few teeth, before the corners were denuded. I guess they are not designed to take the stresses that a corner of a saw file has to withstand. The more expensive file I still have, and use for jobs where I want a small file with a 'safe' edge.

It's not technologically impossible to make a decent saw file, companies like Nicholson & Wiltshire made vastly better offerings up til about 20 years ago. It seems to be a case of 'won't' rather than 'can't'...

Cheers,

Some are diamond too...http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...&cPath=335_399

Originally Posted by Evanism

Some are diamond too...http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...&cPath=335_399

Hi Evanism.
Being Japanese, the diamond files are probably very good quality, but I still doubt the corners would tolerate heavy use. In any case, the files on the page you linked to are all 'feather files' and not suitable for sharpening 'western' saws, which usually requires three-cornered files with 60 deg angles.

Note that they say in the blurb that the diamond files are for 'touching up', hardened teeth. By that I would take it to mean giving them a light stroke or two on the back bevels (Japanese saw teeth have a secondary bevel on the back of the tooth), to refresh the points. You could do that a few times without having to deepen the gullets, so you wouldn't have to worry about the corner grits coming off. By the time the gullets needed attention, you would have removed most or all of the set, & since I doubt you can re-set hardened teeth, it would be time for a new saw blade....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Evanism

Some are diamond too...http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...&cPath=335_399

These files are for japanese saws and a different shape of course. I note that the diamond files are for "touching up" hard tooth saws. I guess any real sharpening will do the diamond shedding trick. The problem with spring steel seesm to be that the saw edge is so sharp that the bonding agent can't cope with the shearing. Apparently some people have tried triangular ceramic hones - very quickly go out of shape.

HeavensAbove and IanW, All good points.

Aahhhhhhh!!!!!!! Groan...

Makes me wonder why someone hasn't made a CBN triangular file. Maybe we can get our mate FenceFuniture onto it

This is obvious, but Henry Eckert has them and everyone knows they sell The Good Stuff: http://www.henryeckert.com/index.php...path=35_43_205 ... I mention it as there are a few old Distons here I have never used once, touched or even looked at. They were all in a box on a shelf when I found them....knew nothing about saws at the time (still don't)

Of course it doesn't help OP who simply wanted someone to do it for him

Originally Posted by Evanism

.....This is obvious, but Henry Eckert has them and everyone knows they sell The Good Stuff: http://www.henryeckert.com/index.php...path=35_43_205....

Funny you should mention that. I bought a batch of files from there, a couple of weeks ago. They were Pferd files, and at 14 bucks apiece, not what you'd call cheap! But high price doesn't always equal high quality, it seems. Here are 3 files I used while toothing & sharpening three 12", 12 tpi,saws: 3 files.jpg

If the pic comes up well enough on your screen, you should be able to see that the file in the centre has chipped severely, the one at the back has chipped a bit less severely, while the one in front (a Pferd also, but from a different batch) has some minor chipping, but the teeth are worn almost smooth in the middle section. They are all cactus

The chipping is due to the metal being too brittle (I'm not rough on files!). Wear is ok, and to be expected, but that front file made about half the number of teeth I expected before it stopped cutting. For saw-sharpening purposes, excessive chipping is perhaps the worst fault, because it makes the file catch & it is almost impossible to keep strokes smooth & even & make even teeth. Believe me, the files of just a few short years ago, would last twice as long (at least) and usually just wore down (at about 1/4 the rate). Chipping to the extent you see here was rare unless you abused them. Mr. Pferd could definitely do with some QC, I reckon......

Cheers,

Hi Guys....

Marv Werner here from one of the states... California

Here's a link to a forum I'm supposed to be in charge of at The Woodworker's Zone (WWZ)
http://woodworkerszone.com/igits/forumdisplay.php?f=63

Some of the threads posted there includes how to make a good cheap backsaw with detailed instructions on how to file crosscut teeth. There's a lot to read there, so take your time and expect a journey.

Here's a link to one of the threads in particular that was done by Rolhammer (Roland) who took on the challenge of making his first saw and his first attempt at filing new teeth. http://woodworkerszone.com/igits/showthread.php?t=13680 / At some point in the thread I instructed Roland on how to file crosscut teeth. If you follow it closely you will be able to do it on the first try. Expect to read it over and over a few times. Roland took a lot of pictures and explained what he was doing as he went along. The thread is quite long but very informative.

You guys are welcome to register and become a member. I would love to see you in my forum. We are in need of more activity. The forum title is "SAWS-Marv's shop of pointy things"

Good luck,
Marv