Thread: Sharpening Chisels and fettling Planes

Originally Posted by hellofellow

....Whats the difference between whetstones and oil-sontes (which is better)? I heart people refer to india stones etc, what are these? ..

Oxford dictionary:
verb (whets, whetting, whetted) [with object]
1. sharpen the blade of (a tool or weapon):

Any stone-like object which can be used to sharpen things is a 'whetstone' it can take the form of a wheel, or a flat chunk of stone. There are many types of sharpening stones, man-made & 'natural'. Two common types of manufactured oil stones are 'India' or green stones & carborundum (grey stones). Carborundum stones generally have a softer matrix than the India stones, so cut faster, but wear more quickly (see next para.). "Natural" oil stones include the Arkansas stones (novaculite) which comes in different grades of 'fineness', like soft white, black hard and translucent white (very hard).

Wht all whetstones have in common is they contain small, very hard particles cemented together by a softer matrix material. To help clear the swarf formed from the abraded steel & the disintegrating stone (which will clog the 'pores' & slow the cutting action), some liquid is used. That can be either water or a light oil. For reasons I don't fully understand, some stones work better with oil, others with water, so that is how you get oil-stones & water-stones.

What's the difference? Although the type of material that forms the cutting particles contributes much to the speed & quality of the cut, the main arbiter of performance is the bonding matrix. In a nutshell, the softer the bond, the faster they cut, because new, sharp particles are continually being exposed. Most water stones cut faster than equivalent particle-size oil stones, because water stones generally have softer bonds. They are also available in a wider range of grit sizes than either man-made or natural oil stones. But (there's always a 'but' or two!), they also wear faster, much faster than most oil stones, due to their very soft bonding matrix. So you have to be careful a) not to nick the surface when sharpening (particularly on the finer grits) and b) to check constantly that they are flat (which takes a considerable amount of effort, either in marathon flattening sessions, or a little bit of effort expended virtually every time you use one.)

You can, in fact, use water on any stone, as long as it hasn't been used with oil previously. However, stones like carborundum are very porous, so you would have to stop after every stroke & replenish the water. Most people would find that a little tedious, I think.

What you need to keep in mind is that a sharp edge is nothing more than the intersection of two planes, preferably in a dead-straight line for tools like chisels & plane blades. The finer the grit used for final honing, the closer the edge comes to perfection, but if observed under suitable magnification, it is never perfect, of course. Your idea of 'sharp' will change quite a bit as your sharpening skills improve.

So you pays your money & you takes your choice - there are passionate advocates who will use only oilstones, and some who will use only water stones, & some like me who use any way that gets the sorts of edges I can work efficiently with. (I have both oil & water stones a couple of diamond plates & some diamond files for good measure...). The arcane art of sharpening is one which raises passions like no other subject in woodworking. There is a whole section on the forum devoted to it, so if you have the time & patience, go there & get yourself even more confused.

Originally Posted by hellofellow

....Qn 2: When fettling a plane you need to flatten the sole-- the site I was refered to (Hand Plane Restoration PAGE 1) shows how to fettle a plane and flattens the sole by "lapping". Now from a quick Google lapping is using a course surface like diamond paste to remove metal on a flat surface such as plate glass. Commonly done on a lapping plate or plate glass with wet-dry sand paper or using lapping paste.

That being said, chisels are 'honed' and the backs flattened using the whetstones.. why can you not do this on the sole of a plane and visa versa (why not lap a the back of a chisel to make it flat rather than using whetstones?)--commonly people seem to use whetstones to flatten/ hone the chisel?

Cheers all...

There are so many questions within questions here, it's hard to know where to start.
If you had the time & the skill, I guess you could flatten a plane sole with a whetstone, but it would be a mighty inefficient way to go about it. When manually lapping anything, it is just easier if the area of the flat reference surface is larger than the object being lapped.

There are whole volumes devoted to lapping of planes, chisel backs, & sundry other tools that benefit from flat metal surfaces. About all I will offer on the subject is stay away from any method that uses a flexible or compressible material like sandpaper. No matter how well it is stuck down, it wells up a little in font of the moving metal. It may be only a tiny fraction of a millimetre, but over many passes it is plenty enough to cause serious rounding of the leading edges of whatever you are lapping.
Under no circumstances be tempted to use belt sanders or linishers! People who know what they are doing can get away with initial cleaning up of badly rounded chisel backs using belt sanders, but these should be avoided like a nasty transmissible disease by the 99% of us who don't. I've seen what would have ben good chisels ruined beyond redemption by belt sanders.
If the terminal part of a chisel or plane blade isn't dead flat, it can spoil your woodworking day, believe me.

The intelligent way to truly flatten a broad expanse of metal like plane soles is by scraping rather than lapping. This is a dark art that takes a bit of learning, but is not impossibly difficult. Again, there are lots of pages on this forum & elsewhere devoted to it.

My advice is to just get going on making some sawdust - there is only one way to become experienced. Start simple, & make things of increasing complexity. You will encounter all of the challenges in their turn, & learn how to solve them. There is nearly always more than one way to do things, and the best way depends on your skill level, the tools on hand,t he result you are aiming for, and your reason for doing woodwork in the first place.....

Have fun!
Cheers,

Snap.
I'd just finished treatise on sharpening, oh well.

Originally Posted by Berlin

Snap.
I'd just finished treatise on sharpening, oh well.

You should still have your say - all opinions wanted here! (And you're probably a way quicker typist than I am, Matt!)

Not on the phone Ian!
You've covered it all better than I could in any case.

Originally Posted by IanW

About all I will offer on the subject is stay away from any method that uses a flexible or compressible material like sandpaper.

I think it might be a bit strong to warn off lapping a handplane on sand-paper ... ok let's say 'flattening' rather than 'lapping' .. I'm not talking granite flat and engineers blue. There will be thousands of people who have happily enough flattened a market-special on their tablesaw and sandpaper. (Including moi)

and while I don't have any experience with it, there is buckets on the 'net about the 'Scary-Sharp' method for plane-irons and chisels, so some people are happy with that too.

(Just saying)
Cheers,
Paul

I thank all you coves for this great thread......and a very happy Christmas, Bill.

When I started this dark art called woodwork ,
I did all the reading I could ,got all the catalogues ,
And got very confused .
As Ian rightly said just start .
Or as a punk band, I use to like the Dead Kenerds ,Talk minus action ,equals nothing .
Yes u need to ask questions read others opionons But the best teacher will be your own experience ,you will learn more in an hour at your bench than ten hours of just reading .
I my self these days you a compenation of diamond and water stones .
And I make sure that the backs are always flat
That would be my first and and only rule .
Also don't get caught up on bevel angles either
Quite yet.
I sharpen till it cuts wood nicely .
I don't care for all this talk of the latest must have gizmo thing .
Learn to sharpen free hand and quickly and u will have a skill for life .
It is frustrating at first, read hard ,but with practice it does get easier and quicker .
Especially once those backs are all flat u only need to do that once .
And enjoy the triumph ,I've cutting end grain pine with a freshly sharpened weapon, I know I did the the first time .

One thing I liked for a bit when I started was honing a primary bevel freehand, cos I wanted to be able to do that, then using an eclipse gauge (=cheap) to hone the secondary bevel. So I got some practice + some consistency also.

Cheers,
Paul

Firstly, thankyou Ian. You truely answer so many of my questions (and questions within questions) with so much detail. Its great to have your input and I really appreciate the help.

Originally Posted by IanW

Two common types of manufactured oil stones are 'India' or green stones & carborundum (grey stones). Carborundum stones generally have a softer matrix than the India stones, so cut faster, but wear more quickly (see next para.). "Natural" oil stones include the Arkansas stones (novaculite) which comes in different grades of 'fineness', like soft white, black hard and translucent white (very hard).
.....
there are passionate advocates who will use only oilstones, and some who will use only water stones, & some like me who use any way that gets the sorts of edges I can work efficiently with. (I have both oil & water stones

I was thinking a whetstone was a waterstone. So any advantage to using waterstones over oilstones? I guess my misconception comes from the fact I have been looking at Japanese whet/waterstones. Which must be different again to Arkansas and India stones (which are OIL,not water stones, although can be used with either)?

Originally Posted by IanW

About all I will offer on the subject is stay away from any method that uses a flexible or compressible material like sandpaper. No matter how well it is stuck down, it wells up a little in font of the moving metal.

So if I choose to stay away from sandpaper when lapping, this is where lapping compound comes into play?

Originally Posted by IanW

If you had the time & the skill, I guess you could flatten a plane sole with a whetstone, but it would be a mighty inefficient way to go about it.

So the main reason you would not do this is efficiency and size... However it is perfectly acceptable to lap/flatten Chisel backs on either a lapping plate OR on your oil/whetstones?----- At the end of the day, lapping is removing material, to flatten the surface, and either will do this?

Lastly I have indeed been making some sawdust for about 6 months now. I started off with powertools and increasingly found the need for hand tools (i.e. made a work bench recently, but want to flatten the whole top with a plane)... but I considered there is no point getting these tools if I cant sharpen them, and there is no point buying sharpening gear in-case I get the wrong stuff. I think as I said up the top, Ill start with: a honing guide, some Japanese whetstones/waterstones and a lapping plate... I hope for a beginner this is adequate to flatten and sharpen/hone blades?

Thanks again everyone, and especially Ian as he keeps answering my rather long winded questions. Cheers mate and happy Christmas to you all for tomorrow... I hope it brings you all lots of new tools

Originally Posted by hellofellow

I was thinking a whetstone was a waterstone. So any advantage to using waterstones over oilstones? I guess my misconception comes from the fact I have been looking at Japanese whet/waterstones. Which must be different again to Arkansas and India stones (which are OIL,not water stones, although can be used with either)?

People commonly equate 'wet' & 'whet', but they are two different words. The latter means 'sharpen' as in whetting the axe to chop the head off the Christmas turkey might whet some appetites.

India & Arkansas stones are generally used with oil, but they could be used with water,theoretically. However, it's possible that water affects the cementing material, & that's why oil is used. I don't know, I simply followed tradition & used oil (actually, my preferred brew is kerosene with a dash of engine oil). I was told early on, that once you have used oil on a stone, you can't use water. I tried it once, out of curiosity - it made a right mess. My informant was right!

Originally Posted by hellofellow

....So if I choose to stay away from sandpaper when lapping, this is where lapping compound comes into play?...

You can go that route, or better still, use abrasives for initial flattening, then use scraping. But as I said, scraping is a skill that takes a little time to master. I think people overstate how flat a plane sole needs to be. I think within a few thou will work just fine, however, that's another contentious issue & you could spend several days pursuing this aspect alone.

PMcGee is quite right - flat and sharp are relative, & what is sufficient for one may be insufficient for another. You may well be happy with methods of sharpening like 'scary sharp', at least initially - there is no doubt you can make edges shaving sharp with it. However, the scariest thing about scary sharpening to me is the number of good tools that are being stuffed up around the world by using sandpaper to "flatten" chisel & plane backs. Sorry Paul, I think the method sucks, and if you ever come by my shed, I will be happy to demonstrate (with one of your chisels!) why I think that way.....

Originally Posted by hellofellow

... So the main reason you would not do this is efficiency and size... However it is perfectly acceptable to lap/flatten Chisel backs on either a lapping plate OR on your oil/whetstones?----- At the end of the day, lapping is removing material, to flatten the surface, and either will do this? ...

Yes, lapping is indeed simply removing material, but some ways of removing material are a) more controllable and b) more efficient!

Originally Posted by hellofellow

.... but I considered there is no point getting these tools if I cant sharpen them, and there is no point buying sharpening gear in-case I get the wrong stuff. I think as I said up the top, Ill start with: a honing guide, some Japanese whetstones/waterstones and a lapping plate... I hope for a beginner this is adequate to flatten and sharpen/hone blades?

Thanks again everyone, and especially Ian as he keeps answering my rather long winded questions. Cheers mate and happy Christmas to you all for tomorrow... I hope it brings you all lots of new tools

Yep, a very reasonable attitude. As a neophyte sharpener, you are probably better off with water stones due to their fast cutting. I would not recommend starting with quite as many grades as you mentioned previously, but I suppose it can't hurt. If most of your blades are new, they shouldn't need too much lapping or grinding, so you should be able to get by pretty well with 3 grades, coarse, medium & fine. I never go beyond 8,000, which gives a mirror finish, but some people do.

You are probably better off with honing guides, too. I don't use them myself, because I started out in the days when craftsmen eschewed such things - you were meant to just get on with it & develop the necessary manual skills. Honing guides should make the end-results much more certain in beginners' hands.

Ah well - I got used to having a new class each year & answering their questions. Questions at least show you're interested, & taking something in! We all have to start at the beginning. Soon things that seem mysterious now will be old hat & you'll have a whole new set of questions.....

Yep, may Santa be kind to all - but please, no new tools here, Santa, I'm okay in that department. Bring me some nice bits of fancy wood, p'raps?

Thanks again Ian!

Where/ what aspect of woodworking do you teach?

Final 2 questions after reading more. There are all these lapping plates available like the DMT diasharp diamond lapping plate etc to keep whetstones flat. Could you also use it for plane soles and chisels? I figure if it's big enough you can

Why can you not use a Diamond whetstone rather than a specialized lapping plate? Although its intended for sharpeming, itself is lapped flat and should not wear....It's a much cheaper option, and is also going to remove material the same way. Is there any advantage to having a " lapping" plate

Here's one perspective on things ...

Originally Posted by hellofellow

......Where/ what aspect of woodworking do you teach?.....

I don't/haven't taught woodworking except informally. I can claim that someone I helped get started many years ago has surpassed me in spades, so at least I didn't do too much wrong! I harangued veterinary undergraduates.
I was referring to teaching in general - every year we would begin again, and lots of the same questions would come up, and lots of questions about things I hadn't thought about, or forgotten. I didn't mind answering even the same old questions, because as I said, it showed the person had enough interest to ask.....

Originally Posted by hellofellow

......Final 2 questions after reading more. There are all these lapping plates available like the DMT diasharp diamond lapping plate etc to keep whetstones flat. Could you also use it for plane soles and chisels? I figure if it's big enough you can

Why can you not use a Diamond whetstone rather than a specialized lapping plate? Although its intended for sharpeming, itself is lapped flat and should not wear....It's a much cheaper option, and is also going to remove material the same way. Is there any advantage to having a " lapping" plate

The diamond plates are excellent for lapping chisel backs & anything that will fit on them. You could fit a small plane on a large plate, but in general, they are a bit small for plane lapping. I have a couple of diamond plates & use them for all sorts of sharpening jobs as well as flattening stones. The decent ones are not cheap, and be careful of the inexpensive ones. A friend brought one home in great triumph recently, only to discover it was anything but flat!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

The diamond plates are excellent for lapping chisel backs & anything that will fit on them. You could fit a small plane on a large plate, but in general, they are a bit small for plane lapping. I have a couple of diamond plates & use them for all sorts of sharpening jobs as well as flattening stones. The decent ones are not cheap, and be careful of the inexpensive ones. A friend brought one home in great triumph recently, only to discover it was anything but flat!

Cheers,

I guess I was considering one of these Monocrystalline Diamond Bench Stones - Lee Valley Tools
The 10inch versions are as big as lapping plates and far far cheaper!

Cheers Ian and Merry Christmas (yes, I am still talking about tools and woodwork on my Christmas day whist waiting for the turkey to finish)

Merry Christmas all