Thread: Saw sharpening files 101

Agree and agree Rod that has been my main point all along, the good old boys that designed and played with these files (no doubt for many many years) have long gone and not many people if any know why the sand goes in or why the taper is there as the case may be. When I was an apprentice I would be putting threaded pipe joints together and I had been told to scratch the threads first with a hacksaw blade before I started to wrap the hemp. I asked the tradesman I was working with and he just said that's how I was taught. I asked the boss later on and he said it was to stop the hemp slipping on the threads and not going down deep into the joint (which I had pretty much worked out by then anyway) I still do the same with thread tape too. Might find non taper file and give it a try.

Originally Posted by chambezio

In my own experience I had to think hard why I use the tapered files. For me its getting the tapered section to "nestle" into the gullet making sure the file has contact with the teeth on either side of the gullet before the stroke commences.

I have nothing but the greatest respect for all the Taper Touters, particularly Claw, with whom I have had numerous verbals discussing the pros and cons of this and that (and let's not forget he's been classically trained in the art of filing twice in two apprenticeships).

However, there's a part of the taper argument that I just can't assemble in my wee head. When nestling the file into the gullet to ensure correct fit etc there is still only the same amount of contact between file & gullet as there would be with the non-tapered part of the file (or indeed a much wider faced file with the same edge profile). The only difference is the amount of file sitting out of the gullet (less, when using the taper, more when not), and that part of the file isn't doing anything whatsoever anyway.

What is it that I'm missing here? There must be something.

Brett, really there is no right or wrong way to file a saw. When you have been taught by a crusty old bloke who has a bad temper/attitude you soon learn that you don't ask too many questions.
When its all said and done you have a dull saw that needs attention, so you get a three cornered file that will fit the angle of the gullet and sharpen the saw THEN go back to work on what you needed the saw to cut.
The technique to sharpen a saw is to be consistent with filing right a cross the length of the saw and like wise on the other side so all the teeth are the same shape and size so that all the teeth cut the timber as it is passed over the timber.
The real issue is being able to buy descent files that will file more than half a saw as the crap that we are putting up with at the moment.
The great debate on sharpening chisels and plane irons went on way too long. There again you use a stone to sharpen an edge then go back to work to finish a job you have started. Sharpening anything is not the project (unless you are a Saw Doctor) its a means to an end.
Let's get some really good files that last so our saws will be sharp to cut that joint to finish that.....

Originally Posted by chambezio

.... and sharpen the saw THEN go back to work on what you needed the saw to cut.

The great debate on sharpening chisels and plane irons went on way too long. There again you use a stone to sharpen an edge then go back to work to finish a job you have started. Sharpening anything is not the project (unless you are a Saw Doctor) its a means to an end.

Indeed Rod. You have the same (correct) attitude that is espoused time and time again by the pros on the forum: maintenance is just a side issue to the REAL issue of getting on with the job at hand. We amateurs (or in my case hamateurs) tend to get bogged down in these things sometimes. In my case it's from a fascination with the procedures and intricacies etc.

Originally Posted by chambezio

The real issue is being able to buy descent files that will file more than half a saw as the crap that we are putting up with at the moment. Let's get some really good files that last so our saws will be sharp to cut that joint to finish that.....

Hear here!

Has it occurred to anyone that not even our USA friends can get a decent home grown file these days? Note that the shortlist of "good" files is only comprised of Western European manufacturers (Bahco, Pferd, Vallorbe-F.Dick, Liogier) and the sole Japanese (unknown) manufacturer? The lone USA producer (ICS) is still an unknown quality, and will remain so until they answer my email.....

Originally Posted by chambezio

I thought it interesting reading the reports from those fellas further up. Some weren't fussed with tapers while others would use nothing else. In my own experience I had to think hard why I use the tapered files. For me its getting the tapered section to "nestle" into the gullet making sure the file has contact with the teeth on either side of the gullet before the stroke commences.

Thinking through the process made me remember a little story. When I was an Apprentice we had to build an accommodation building for doctors at St George hospital in Sydney. The brick walls had been cement rendered and the same renderers had returned to put a skim of white gypsum plaster over the render. Having never seen the process and also not knowing why the plaster had to be put over the render I asked the plasters about it. They were a team of 3, 2 tradesmen and an apprentice who was one of the plasters son. They explained that being a government job the gypsum plaster gave the surface a finer fish and therefore a superior paint job was gained. The apprentice was mixing the gypsum plaster in their mixer (same one for cement render) as he was shovelling in the white plaster he would add a shovel of beach sand. I asked him why the sand and his reply was...."Ooh? I don't know.....(yelled out) Hey Dad, what's the sand for in this plaster?" Dad came outside where we were hawk and trowel in hand and was deep in thought. After a little while of thinking he answered"Oh the sand just breaks up the white plaster so it doesn't go gluggy".
As a team they all knew the recipe and that the sand had to go in and because they did it all the time they just didn't remember why.
Well I thought the story was sort of relevant

Reminds me of the leg of lamb story

Originally Posted by Sawdust Maker

Reminds me of the leg of lamb story

Here's a go - go on then.....

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Here's a go - go on then.....

He he he ... I was just thinking that, but I heard it as a turkey-cooking story.

Kid comes home from school ... thanksgiving coming up ... and says "We cooked a turkey at school."
"Mom" is cooking a turkey too, so says "You can help me."
They go through it all until the point where mum cuts the wings off the turkey ...
Kid says "We didn't do that at school ... why do you do it?"

Mom ... "I don't really remember, that's how Mom taught me."
So they phone up Grandma down the road to ask why we cut the wings off the turkey.
She can't remember either.

So they get in the car, pick up Grandma, and go to see Great-Grandma in the nursing home.
"Great Grandma ... why did you teach us to cut the wings off the turkey when we cook it?"

... "Well, when I was growing up, we only had this narrow pan ..."


Always loved that "joke".

Originally Posted by chambezio

Brett, really there is no right or wrong way to file a saw. When you have been taught by a crusty old bloke who has a bad temper/attitude you soon learn that you don't ask too many questions.
When its all said and done you have a dull saw that needs attention, so you get a three cornered file that will fit the angle of the gullet and sharpen the saw THEN go back to work on what you needed the saw to cut.
The technique to sharpen a saw is to be consistent with filing right a cross the length of the saw and like wise on the other side so all the teeth are the same shape and size so that all the teeth cut the timber as it is passed over the timber.
The real issue is being able to buy descent files that will file more than half a saw as the crap that we are putting up with at the moment.
The great debate on sharpening chisels and plane irons went on way too long. There again you use a stone to sharpen an edge then go back to work to finish a job you have started. Sharpening anything is not the project (unless you are a Saw Doctor) its a means to an end.
Let's get some really good files that last so our saws will be sharp to cut that joint to finish that.....

What a spoil sport, Brett has managed to get me back onto the forum with this thread after being away for a year and now you want to spoil the fun, bar humbug

Oh and Brett, a large file in a small gullet is hard to control, the center of gravity/pivot point etc is too high and easy to alter your angle and lean towards one tooth or another. Snap the end off an old one and give it a try. If you go by the theory of having about half the depth of the file out (so you get new meat when you roll it over) and see how you go.

Originally Posted by Claw Hama

What a spoil sport, Brett has managed to get me back onto the forum with this thread after being away for a year and now you want to spoil the fun, bar humbug

Oh and Brett, a large file in a small gullet is hard to control, the center of gravity/pivot point etc is too high and easy to alter your angle and lean towards one tooth or another. Snap the end off an old one and give it a try. If you go by the theory of having about half the depth of the file out (so you get new meat when you roll it over) and see how you go.

Yeah, I was just making the point that in theory it's possible.

Soooo, I'm still none the wiser on the small fellas where centre of gravity shouldn't be a problem, and like Adam Gilchrist, I'm all ears.....

Nothing constructive to add, having never sharpened a saw, but I am watching with much interest. I do, however have a large rip saw to sharpen. 4.5 to 3.5 progressive pitch. click What would you recommend for a noob? Besides giving it to someone who actually knows what they're doing.

Originally Posted by NCArcher

Nothing constructive to add, having never sharpened a saw, but I am watching with much interest. I do, however have a large rip saw to sharpen. 4.5 to 3.5 progressive pitch. click What would you recommend for a noob? Besides giving it to someone who actually knows what they're doing.

Looks like the teeth are in fairly good nick, bring it with you when you come down to the office and we'll have a cupa and give it a tidy up. Rip is very straight forward and a 4.5 or so is a nice easy one to show you on and you'll be right for next time. If you can get a good file

Orrite den, my little chart says for 3.5 tpi you need a file with a 14mm face, and for 4.5 a 12.5mm face. Although you may get away with the same 14mm file for the 4.5 teeth if the gullet can have the same radius.

How does that go Claw?

EDIT: I should add that the formula I used accounts only for neutral rake (i.e. not _ve or +ve), and the dimensions of the file required will vary with the rake - i.e. will need a bigger file face - I think. (posted before I've seen any subsequent howling down )What a bunch of crap!

Originally Posted by Claw Hama

Looks like the teeth are in fairly good nick, bring it with you when you come down to the office and we'll have a cupa and give it a tidy up. Rip is very straight forward and a 4.5 or so is a nice easy one to show you on and you'll be right for next time. If you can get a good file

I'll do that Mark. I won't be in the office for a few weeks though. I've been seconded to a mine full time for three weeks. I'm not used to actually working. Now to locate a decent file. Although we haven't established what are the bee knees of saw filing yet we have identified what to avoid. (What's the bet that those are the only ones I can find )

Tony - two things:
a) it's only files for (say) 12 tpi and smaller (up to 20 tpi) that are so problematic
b) I'll be mightily surprised if Claw hasn't got the right one.....