Thread: Saw sharpening files 101

Originally Posted by Colin62

Will do. The order has been placed and paid for. Two days to get stock - which means that it's coming from Johannesburg - which may or may not mean that they're made there.

Delivery is free (about 150km from their offices), and I can't get over how helpful they have been for what must be one of their smallest customers. I hope the files are decent - I'd almost feel guilty not ordering more from them

Goodo. The devil will be in how the edges perform.

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Discussions with Brett have revealed he is privy to information I am apparently not. It doesn't appear on my web page. But I'm not offended .

Once again I was into the head-scratching ... as I had only recently seen what he was talking about ... but nothing on this page ... and still nothing now.

I'm guessing it is only viewable by the originator of the thread. Eg I can see it in the "When ... goes wrong" thread.

Ahhh clarity.

Just noticed in a link PMcGee put up that Matt Cianci on his saw blog said this in answer to which files he uses:

"As for your questions…

1) I used only one file on this saw…all three sides though. I def used it all up.
(he rehabed a big D8 cross cut)

2) I use Pferd and Bahco files and buy them by the box.

3) Pferd are from toolzone.com and Bahco from motionindustries.com

Good luck,
Matt"
http://thesawblog.com/?p=2111

So that's a pro's vote for Bahco and Pferd.

The other Matt

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I was going to post a flippant "1259 views," but I'm not going to do that now. Discussions with Brett have revealed he is privy to information I am apparently not. It doesn't appear on my web page. But I'm not offended .

He is talking about the number of different registered forum members who have visited this thread. It is indeed an impressive 103 at last count (plus the unregistered visitors). So I unreservedly withdraw my scurrilous comments regarding Brett's ability to count, read or interpret statistics .

Furthermore I hope it will not influence adversely how long it will take to receive any of the items I have agreed to purchase through his Group Buys . (Currently there are at least three instances I am still anguishing over how I will tell SWMBO )

A Noel Liogier, "Tres interesante, n'est pas?"

Regards
Paul

OK OK, I've worked it out. This information appears at the foot of the page if you started the thread, but it is not visible to the rest of the world .

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Confirmed just now - Lee Valley's Grobet Files are manufactured in Switzerland (I imagine that LN's must be the same). Will be very interested to see how the Bahco's go in local testing.

I bought saw files from LN earlier this year. They are:
7" RT - marked FL Grobet/2nd Cut
7" ST - marked FL Grobet/2nd Cut
6" ST - marked FL Grobet/2nd Cut
6" EST - marked Grobet USA
6" DEST - marked FL Grobet/2nd Cut
5" DEST - marked FL Grobet/2nd Cut

I bought some more from Classic Hand Tools in UK at the same time:

7" RT - marked Grobet/Switzerland/2nd Cut
7" ST - marked FL Grobet/Swiss/2nd Cut
6" EST - marked FL Grobet/Swiss/2nd Cut
5" DEST - marked FL Grobet/2nd Cut
4" DEST - marked FL Grobet/2nd Cut

Dunno if this helps... ('specially as I can't find my saw sharpening tuit)

Cheers, Vann.

I have attached a spreadsheet of the available good quality files, both from Australia and the USA. Attached also as a PDF. Have to find out about Pferd in Oz, and waiting on some news re Bahco.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I have attached a spreadsheet of the available good quality files, both from Australia and the USA. Attached also as a PDF. Have to find out about Pferd in Oz, and waiting on some news re Bahco.

Not including Jim Davey? Was it decided his Grobet files where not Swiss.
regards
Mike

Ah! Good point. I'll address that with the next posting of the attachments.

We could also do with some idea of what performance constitutes a "good file" ...

other than consistency of filing ... how much work to expect out of a given size.

Eg 8" Nicholson removed a lot of metal from my 4-1/2pt saw mostly using one corner ... but I'm not sure what state the whole thing is in now.

How much life should we hope to get?

Thanks,
Paul

Well at this stage of proceedings, and when it comesto small files, I think anything that actually works for a couple of sharpenings without the corners breaking would constitute a "good file", eh Ian?

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Well at this stage of proceedings, and when it comes small files, I think anything that actually works for a couple of sharpenings without the corners breaking would constitute a "good file", eh Ian?

Not too far off, Brett!

Paul, your question is in the "how long is a piece of string?" category, as you probably realise. There is just too much variation in how many actual strokes you need to make (length of saw plus how much metal needs to be removed from each tooth) to be able to declare a file should do X sharpenings. There is some variation in plate hardness, but so far, I have only struck 2 saws that ate files three times faster than average. There are a few kicking about, but they are a small minority of saws. Old Disstons seem to be around the harder side of the bell curve, but are not file destroyers. As a point of reference, I would expect to get 3 or 4 light sharpenings out of a file on my 26" 8tpi crosscut. If I had to do serious reforming of teeth, it might use up the best part of a file - in any case I would break out a new one for the final sharpening run of a couple of strokes per tooth (after setting).

Once you've done a bit of filing you will soon get a feel for file quality. Amongst the recognised brands, I haven't struck a problem with softness, it has been more a problem with brittleness of the corner teeth. The only really soft files I've struck are some no-names I have picked up here & there. You can feel on the first swipe they are useless.....

Cheers,

Just my 2cents worth.
Ive been looking into getting some saw files for a week or so now. Lots of reading of forums all over the place. Heaps of good info in this thread btw.

Ive decided to hunt down some Friedrick Dick, aka F Dick saw files. Friedr. DICK - Files+rasps
From my research Friedrick Dick use VALLORBE (the company, that also happens be in the town) to manufacture their files since about 1993. I think that they are a great bang for buck (Mind you, I made that assumption from readings), of course depending where you buy them from.
I wrote to Dieter Schmid at Homepage of Dieter Schmid's Fine Tools to find out where their saw files are from since it is not stated on their website. He confirmed that they are F Dick files and so are their range of handles (that are made in Germany, unlike the files that are Swiss).
While the $AUD is still ok, the price there including postage is not bad as long as your order is below 30Euros. (at check out click post to Australia, that removes the VAT % and give you the actual price.) So considering that, you can get unto 6 files, maybe one or two more if you are after the smaller ones (not a huge order but enough for me) plus the german handles sent for under $AUD50.
Something to consider for those who are in that market for a smaller order of saw files or slowing building up a collection of precision woodworking tools (such as me).

BTW, there are a few F Dick suppliers in Australia, but they tend to by suppliers of high quality jewellery instruments, plus kitchen knife suppliers. So the prices in those stores are quite high.

Originally Posted by IanW

Paul, your question is in the "how long is a piece of string?" category, as you probably realise. There is just too much variation in how many actual strokes you need to make (length of saw plus how much metal needs to be removed from each tooth) to be able to declare a file should do X sharpenings.

I dunno about that. The central concept in this thread is 'foils ain't foils' ... so it begs at least a ballpark definition of what is quality and/or value for money in a saw file.

I read it (the aim of the thread) as not only a valuable analysis for the current enthusiast, but also a hand-up to encourage others who might be willing to have a slash at it and wanna know where to start.

So we can either take a pragmatic approach that - experienced people have given their feedback and here's some recommended sources - which is fine. But it isn't too hard to imagine a few scenarios (eg below) and if some sort of ballpark indication could be attached to those, then people could
(a) get some idea of what they need to order, or
(b) grab something from a local source, try it out and compare to see if they're getting bang for their buck.

I'm thinking, eg
- someone who has bought a new backsaw from Carbatec, etc or LN LV or even a Wenzloff, and wants to keep it in good condition with regular attention.
- someone with a weekend buy backsaw who has cleaned it up, sorted out the handle and might be knocking off most of the teeth to start just about fresh.
- someone with a weekend buy handsaw 1900-1970 who having cleaned it up wants to sharpen 26" of regular but dull (rip?) teeth.

As a point of reference, I would expect to get 3 or 4 light sharpenings out of a file on my 26" 8tpi crosscut. If I had to do serious reforming of teeth, it might use up the best part of a file

Maybe you just did.

Cheers,
Paul

Hi Girius, yes I was looking at the Dieter Schmid site the other day and the brand looked like F.Dick but I couldn't be sure, so it's good that you can confirm.

They are pretty good prices for what is ostensibly a Vallorbe file (just rebadged). Be aware though that the needle file at the bottom of the Saw Files page is only a 140mm and will therefore only have a very short toothed area (perhaps 60-65mm) and because they taper to a point (rather than a blunt end like DEST or EST etc) the usable length of toothing for saw teeth is very short indeed - perhaps 35-45mm.

A 180mm needle has total toothed length of about 80mm, so usable length would be around 60mm. With a 100mm (DEST, EST or ST) the toothed area is around 80-85mm, and the usable length is about 70-75mm.

This is why a 100mm DEST is preferable to a Needle file - longer strokes = less strokes = greater file life, and needles are generally more expensive (sometimes much more). PLUS the needle file is double cut, higher tpc, and always seem to be described as "3 Square" which to me indicates that they are NOT cut on the edges, and will therefore yield a point in the gullet, leading to a stress point.

However, in the absence of a 100mm DEST I posted a 180mm Liogier Medium Needle to Derek this morning. It will be interesting to see how it performs - although it has a high tooth count of 32 tpc - maybe a few more strokes than usual required. The edges on this needle were actually cut (but there was one very short bald patch), and the overcut is incredibly shallow (so more like a single cut file). For all those reasons I'm thinking that it should do the job of a 100mm DEST, albeit a little slower. It was one of these files (but Smooth and Featheredge profile) that Claw Hama got excellent results from on his Japanese Pull Saw. Featheredge (aka Hook or Sword) is like two isosceles triangles joined at the short face, so it has four sides with two very acute angles of 35*. You can see a big version at the bottom of the Schmid Saw files page.