Thread: Saw sharpening files 101

hmmmm,so that you file the gullet before the cutting edge.

How about this for a set of Saw Sharpening files, to cover every tpi.

A set of untapered files with blunt ends:


Then, produce the same, but as a set of Bastards, Double Cut, for tooth forming (to be followed by the above files).

Maybe the 3tpi can be dropped. What's the biggest toothing for a hand saw, 1 person, 1 handed?
Maybe the two finest ones could be 125mm long (shoulder to toe). The production cost would no doubt be the same though....

Ray .. the poster you put up had that specifically machine-filing 6" file. It wasn't tapered.

The taper helps with holding the gauge block on the end of the file, I guess ... if it was a uniform prism then the block could theoretically slide in from the end.

Also with my square-shoulder saw "vice" I found it an advantage because I could drop the block onto the rear shoulder, and due to the taper the file started mostly clear of the gullet. That way I can be oriented correctly at the start of the stroke, with a little space for left/right wiggle in placing the file over the gullet.

Maybe it is meant to be easier on the fingers? ... or just saves a little bit of metal?

Cheers,
Paul

Understanding Saw File Sizes | Norse Woodsmith

"The "taper" is just that, a slight taper to the thickness of the file at the end. It aids in starting the file to cut properly and evenly."

Originally Posted by pmcgee

The taper helps with holding the gauge block on the end of the file, I guess ... if it was a uniform prism then the block could theoretically slide in from the end. It probably would, but I suspect that gauge blocks came along after tapered files, and only to support lesser skills (no offence intended, but you prolly know what I mean).

Also with my square-shoulder saw "vice" I found it an advantage because I could drop the block onto the rear shoulder, and due to the taper the file started mostly clear of the gullet. That way I can be oriented correctly at the start of the stroke, with a little space for left/right wiggle in placing the file over the gullet. Maybe visually allowing for the taper can lead to an incorect stroke? Particularly when it comes to fleam?

Maybe it is meant to be easier on the fingers? Bah!

... or just saves a little bit of metal? The pittance of metal saved would be nothing compared to the cost of grinding the taper, plus all the defective "bents" that could arise (during tempering and hardening) - I would think. Actually, it wouldn't save any metal at all - the taper would involve grinding metal off, and therefore add cost.

One thing I've noticed with taper files is that the taper is inconsistent - I guess this is due to grinding by hand/eyeball.

Maybe the untoothed toe needs to be a bit longer to accommodate filing guides. IsaacS could have some input there (seeings how he produces saw filing guides).
EDIT: I meant to also say that the untoothed toe would need to be long enough so that it could be placed in the gullet to get a bit of a run at it, before yer actual filing starts.

I guess I'm thinking out loud, but with intent.

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Understanding Saw File Sizes | Norse Woodsmith

"The "taper" is just that, a slight taper to the thickness of the file at the end. It aids in starting the file to cut properly and evenly."

Good link Paul

But, inevitably........ does that mean that a taper "for an easier start" is tantamount to a variable pitch saw......which seems to have been decried as a "saw for beginners".....hmmm?

(yeah, maybe you're right and we do need to get out more, although I've just returned from dinner out....where files, and the stupidity of the nomenclature, were discussed for a very short while....I was told it was boring and confusing....can you believe that?)

Whilst doing a search on "radius of saw file edges", the first hit was from the ICS Cutting Tools site.

The first thing of interest is about 3 Square files:
"Three Square Files are designed for filing internal angles above 60°, corners, grooves, notches, and for filing HSS taps and cutters after machining. They are double cut on all three sides and taper slightly to point. NOTE: This file has sharp corners and is not recommended for filing saws."

The second thing of interest is - they have a complete range of saw files - how come these guys have never come up in any discussion I've seen (and, ah, I've seen a few this week)? Now that I look at their site, I've been there before in regard to Drill bit research. One of our chaps found them when we were looking for a good 3/4 Brad Point. They are the developers of the Perfect Point Drill Bit.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

....I was told it was boring and confusing....can you believe that?)

I get very little else.

What you said about taper requiring more work assumes the blanks are milled rather than stamped/forged.
I assume way back they woulda been made by a guy with a hammer and a fire going.

Cheers,
Paul


2006 ... familiar problem ... Saw Sharpening

Just to add some more pricing info - found the following company locally that stocks pferd files
www.pps-industries.co.nz

Unfortunately they don't stock the 2X slim. But got a quote for buying by the box (10) which included a 25% discount as follows:

(these prices per file before GST and discount)

100mm XSlim - NZ$6.24
150mm XSlim - NZ$11.78
150mm Slim - NZ$12.23

even with the discount Lie Nielsen still works out better for me and I can get the 2X Slim from them.

cheers
Robin

Good work Quark

Originally Posted by pmcgee

Understanding Saw File Sizes | Norse Woodsmith

"The "taper" is just that, a slight taper to the thickness of the file at the end. It aids in starting the file to cut properly and evenly."

sounds better than what i said, so i'm gonna go over here crawl back under my rock and watch the professionals at work

Well, this is quite the thread, what with all your talk about taper and corner radius and other arcane minutae. Looks like I might fit in here...

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Maybe the untoothed toe needs to be a bit longer to accommodate filing guides. IsaacS could have some input there (seeings how he produces saw filing guides).
EDIT: I meant to also say that the untoothed toe would need to be long enough so that it could be placed in the gullet to get a bit of a run at it, before yer actual filing starts.

From my perspective, it doesn't really matter how long the untoothed portion is. It would fit in my filing guide (and others, I imagine) whether it is toothed or not. I'd say an untoothed section of about 1/2" - 3/4" (13-19 mm) is about right.

I don't see any benefit to having more than that untoothed, as it's just lost teeth on the file. I have never started filing by getting a running start on the untoothed portion. I've never had a problem starting it, so long as it is a good file that is still sharp. Dull or poor quality files are an entirely different story.


The file I use most is a 7 3/4" Grobet three square file. I am mostly filing backsaws from 12 to 16 ppi, and I use this one for all of them. The corner is not sharp, but more flattened off than rounded. I have no concerns about stress risers, and the added gullet space and well-defined tooth shape is a huge plus or me.

That's all I have time for now, but I will read more of this thread and respond when I have the chance. I'm really looking forward to weeing what comes of all of this.

Originally Posted by Isaac S

I'm really looking forward to weeing what comes of all of this.

YEP! We're all peeing ourselves too!

Thanks Isaac.

Last night I sent out a survey to various saw makers and saw doctors. I have received some results back, and have still to send some more emails (awaiting em.addresses).


To me, the first two questions are the most important, and look at those results! Almost unanimously in favour of no taper! THE TAPER BOYS ARE CLAWING BACK.....

One Three guys likes the taper - hope you've got a good supply sport! . One other is not sure, simply because of never having tried a non-taper (coz they don't exist - yet)