Thread: Saw sharpening files 101

Joe Federici ... Joe Federici | Positive Rake

Have updated the survey image. Note that the one and only "Taper Lover" has found a mate.

WEBLINKS
Wikipedia - FILES

Nicholson File Filosophy

A Treatise on Files & Rasps

THREADS
Thread – METAL FILES 101

Thread – Triangular Files for Saws

Thread – LIOGIER FILES TESTING

Thread – CITRIC ACID CLEANING

MANUFACTURER’S SITES
Bahco – SAW FILES
Bahco – NEEDLE FILES

F.Dick – SAW FILES
F.Dick – NEEDLE FILES

Grobet USA
Grobet USA – SAW FIES PDF
Grobet USA – NEEDLE FILES

ICS Cutting Tools

Pferd

Vallorbe – manufacturer’s site (very little info)

BLOGS
Joe Federici
Matt Cianci
NorseWoodsmith
Paul Sellers on Bahco Files

RETAILERS – AUSTRALIA & NZ
Henry Eckert (Vallorbe, Adelaide)
House of Jewellery (pretty much under construction) (Vallorbe Needles, Sydney)
Jim Davey (Grobet USA, Nowra)
PPS Industries (Pferd stockists in NZ)
TOOLMART (Bahco in Perth)

RETAILERS – EUROPE
Dieter Schmid FINE TOOLS (F.Dick, Germany)

RETAILERS – USA
B2B Professional Tools (Vallorbe)
Lee Valley (Grobet SWISS)
Lie Nielsen (Grobet SWISS)
Tools For Working Wood (Grobet, not sure where from yet)


ANY MORE?

Here is a summary so far, as a Word document, and a PDF - the PDF links won't work(yeah, I know there's a way - too much work, and they're in the last post anyway).

THE TAPER BOYS ARE CLAWING BACK.....see post #105 for an update.

There are a bunch of old publications here ... The Evenfall Studios Woodworks Library

Saw Filing and Management of Saws
by Robert Grimshaw, 1882

Grimshaw On Saws
The History, Development, Action, Classification, And Comparison Of Saws Of All Kinds
by Robert Grimshaw, 1882


A Treatise on Files and Rasps
by The Nicholson File Company, 1878


American Swiss Swiss Pattern Files of Precision
by American Swiss File & Tool Company, 1941


Disston Lumberman's Handbook
containing a treatise on the construction of Saws and how to keep them in order
by Henry Disston & Sons, 1907


The Disston Saw, Tool & File Book
by Henry Disston & Sons, 1926


The Disston Saw, Tool & File Book
by Henry Disston & Sons, 1953


Nicholson The Guide to Files and Filing
by Cooper Hand Tools, 2006


Simonds Facts on Files
by Simonds International, 2006


The Art Of Saw-Filing
by H. W. Holly, 1864


The File It's History, Making, and Uses
by Henry Disston & Sons, 1921


The Saw In History
by Henry Disston and Sons, 1916

American Swiss Pattern pdf has "Metal Saw File" = parallel sides ... in addition to 3sqrs and taper files.

- - -
Quite a few pages at wkfinetools also, from around the 1880-1900 sort of period.

For what its worth....I have always used a 6" Slim Taper. I was taught to use it many moons ago and have used nothing else. I find that at the start of the filing stroke the smaller end of the file can sit nicely into the gullet before you actually push the file through the stoke. (I hope that makes sense)
Once upon a time you could get 3 saws sharpened out of one file but now, using a Nicholson file (as that seems to be all one can get in Tamworth) you barely get one saw out of the file. The files are just not sharp enough!
At the WWShow in Brissy I picked up a few slim tapers (of unknown brand) just to give me some to go on with.
Brett I would be interested in some descent files if you come across them
I even file the teeth on my Fein Multisaw. The plate is hard and thin but with a new file you get a reasonably sharp blade when you are done. Save's money too, because the blades are not cheap to buy

chambezio
i get my pferd flat files from a mob in tamworth seems reasonable to assume that they might be able to get you some tapers

Originally Posted by 1thumb

chambezio
i get my pferd flat files from a mob in tamworth seems reasonable to assume that they might be able to get you some tapers

What "Mob" do you use? I only seem to find Nicholsons who are part of the Coopers Tools chain that supply a lot of the stores in Tamworth

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

I think that some are probably still confused about Vallorbe and Vallorbe (dunno why).

This is my read of it so far (and I'll stand corrected):

• Vallorbe is a region in Switerland, famous for it's high quality metalwork, including file/rasp makers.
• "Grobet" is one of the manufacturers, started in 1812 (?) and responsible for the creation of the Swiss Pattern Files designs.
• "Vallorbe" is another manufacturer, taking their name from the region.

Derek was saying that Grobet have bought Vallorbe out. Certainly the names are often linked, as they are on the Vallorbe website (in one page anyway).

Dieter Schmid seems to support Derek's statement when he describes their files as

• "... The precicion files made by VALLORBE GROBET have been developed along the needs of the watch makers industry in Switzerland. Today they set the standard for quality files. They are not only suited for metal work, but for fine woodworking too. The swiss files sold in Germany have the label Fr. Dick. The hardness is 66 - 67 HRC...."

Precision Files, Habilis Files - with Table of Cuts

Not sure whether this helps or confuses.

Still soaking up the debate !!


Fair Winds

Graeme

Japanese Files.......

An email came in this morning from someone who is using some Japanese files which are 3 Square (i.e. no toothed edges), and get this........no taper.........and he loves them. This is someone who knows what he's doing, and he says he can't imagine how a file could get better.

Now THAT sounds interesting!

He doesn't know who the maker is, and only deals through a broker (who may not want to reveal any info). I'm awaiting more info if I can get it.

Maybe an email to Schtoo will be in order.....

Brett I was having a look at the Habilis site Graeme posted and here is one of my arguments on square files/three sided files and sharp gullets. As I know it a recipe for disaster, lost teeth and cracked blades especially for those of us that work with good old Aussie hardwoods.

What is the difference between normal three-sided files and saw files?
Regular three-sided files have sharp corners that cut a hard angle. Saw files have corners that are ever so slightly rounded, so as to maintain the round gullet between the saw's teeth as one files them. This is to help prevent cracking the base of the teeth, which is easy to do if one does not work carefully and precisely. Because of technical issues in the manufacture of saw files, there is a limit to how small the files can be made. Therefore we, as recommended by Eddie Sirotich of Adria Tools, offer a small needle file to sharpen saws with extremely fine teeth. An alternative for very fine-toothed Western type saws is to use a small Japanese sword-form file, which also has a lightly rounded corner. But one must then file both the tooth's front edge and back separately. This in contrast to using the proper triangular file, which will file the front of one tooth and the back of the previous tooth on the same stroke.

Yes Claw, I think it comes down to the difficulty of manufacturing a file with <4mm face that has a rounded edge. Maybe it's just not possible. However look at this pic that Ian took of the Vallorbe Needle on the left (prolly a 4mm face), Liogier 4" EST (5mm face) in the middle, and some POS (not NOS) on the right. You can see pretty clearly that the Needle does indeed have cut edges.





Now have a look at these Liogier Needles, and the edges - they are quite clearly cut.







As I said in that post (#29 in this saga)
"The important thing to note is that the edge of the Needle has been cut - it is NOT a 3 Square (maybe it was supposed to be - dunno - but it's cut on the edge)."

and as I said in the email to Derek "there is a slight "bald" spot on one of the edges, but not significant"

Derek now has that file (or maybe not just yet), so it will be interesting to see what he makes of it, and whether or not it does the job required.


The point being: who cares if it was supposed to be 3 Square, it's not, as near as I can tell, and therefore should work. Neither does it have any great evidence of Double Cutting, as I also commented, so again the surface of the tooth should be pretty nice.



Now that I have heard from someone who is using non-tapered files I'm dead keen to get hold of some to send out to the two camps - those that can't be fagged about the taper, and those who can (such as yourself), for the same good old reason: What gives eh?

Originally Posted by chambezio

What "Mob" do you use? I only seem to find Nicholsons who are part of the Coopers Tools chain that supply a lot of the stores in Tamworth

sorry shoulda said before,try a mob called Sawcare i think they are in taminda