Thread: Saw sharpening files 101

I wasn't sure if the Japanese file mentioned to me might be some kind of commercial secret or summint......but on further research, apparently not, seeings how they actually sell them

No piccy I'm afraid, but click.

HEY, you know the old rule, no picture it doesn't exist!!

At least the Taper Boys can form a quorum now....



ADDITIONAL NOTES FROM SOME OF THE SURVEY RESPONDERS
It can be seen from the notes below that there are two fairly evenly split camps on the virtues of the taper, and having files of the same profile but longer.

Those who have used recently produced files are unanimous in saying that the current offerings are mostly rubbish and useless, with fewer and fewer exceptions. There is vast disappointment with the current quality if what used to be iconic saw fike brands.

In fact the only good files seem to now be (i.e. I've not heard any bad reports):

• Bahco taper files (but no 4" DEST available)
• Pferd taper files (but no 4" DEST available)
• F.Dick taper files (rebadged Vallorbes)
• Vallorbe Needles
• Grobet Needles (which may be rebadged Vallorbes - still unknown)
• and the mysterious Japanese non-tapered files

Completely unkown quality as yet:

• ICS Cutting Tools (taper files and needle files)
• Bahco Needle files
• Liogier Needle files (and IanW & Derek are now in posession of samples)

Brands that "may be disappointing" (i.e. recently produced stock):

• Grobet tapered saw files
• Nicholson
• Wiltshire
• Simonds

I have not included or excluded Liogier saw files in these summary notes because only three people have tried them, and they have had mixed results, depending on the batch (from excellent, to snapping teeth and corners with too large a radius). This will be addressed in the coming months, as files are not the core business for Liogier.

NOBODY has used the files from ICS Cutting Tools, but several are now keen to, having been made aware of their existence.

Mike Merlo:
I am hard on files but have learned when to "break one in" that is a little too aggressively cut by going easy on it at first. A very hard file with the teeth relaxed a bit may be something to consider here.

The temper and toughness are the most important qualities in a good file - too brittle and the corner teeth are broken .... rendering the file useless. I believe .... from experience .... that the "angle of cut" on the teeth have a lot to do with this also - too aggressive and they break - there is a happy medium somewhere. Too soft or not tough enough - they wear out quickly in typical saw steel.

I have been filing for over 50 years and typically file 2-3 handsaws in a day - preferring with longer files as my touch is quite controlled - where typically a 6" slim taper would be called for in the conventional wisdom - I prefer an 8" dbl extra slim - same with all widths - the short stroke may be good for someone just touching up or the beginner who is in danger of removing too much material per stroke .... not here. Since I file in the sloped gullet discipline - a longer file keeps me from barking my knuckles on the vise.

The taper is very important to me - at the rhythm & speed I progress down the toothline, the tapered end gets me in the gullet with no worries - when it misses my preferred gullet - it screws up my rhythm. Different files have different tapers on them - a vintage Nicholson is very gradual whereas a vintage Kearny & Foot (K&F) has a much quicker taper - I love them both but must change something (in my head) to adapt for this difference .... when using them. So - for handsaws - I do not like the blunts.


Kevin Drake:
We have tried numerous files, domestic and foreign. It appears that most of the makers have opted for cost over quality. We are currently using saw files made in Japan whichare 3-square and are not tapered. They are the best we have seen, and I would be at a loss to know how they could be better. We use them to file all of our saws, up to 18 tpi. Unless you are sawing 1/8" ebony, I can't imagine an application for anything finer.

The taper on saw files is a mystery to me. Perhaps it is supposed to make them easier to start..........but the files we use are straight, no taper.

Now I must say that my experience with the currently produced files is that I despise the Grobets - both the Swiss and Indian .... they are either too aggressive/hard and the corners are broken on the first few strokes and the Simonds although good - are just too aggressive or the tooth angles are wrong - or something ..... I cannot say what .... no issues with broken teeth - but they are just not smooth cutters.


Matt Cianci:
I kind of use the taper...it can be helpful starting certain gullets. Having only used tapered files, I can't say (about not having a taper). I would be inclined to keep the taper though.

Keep the lengths as they are. Small files like 4" and 5" XX slim are very delicate. Lengthening them would only cause more breaking, as they would be more prone to do.

I go through hundreds of files a year...I think there is vast room for improvement. Biggest gripe is probably consistency in steel/hardening. Batch hardening is not a great way to make a tool, but I understand the requirements of mass production. Still, it would be nice if a file maker could offer a consistently hardened/tempered file that was tough and yet not so brittle that it breaks teeth off after five strokes on a tooth (Grobet...I'm thinking of you!).

I have used both the Swiss made Grobet's and the USA Grobet's extensively and have found both to be unnacceptable. They seem to fall victim to the QC issue...no consistency. The USA Grobet's are made in India, and are not as brittle as the Swiss made ones, so they can be acceptable. The Swiss ones are almost laughable at their price point. One box I bought was cut so poorly (the teeth were not even cut into the edges...another mark of a poorly made file and a note to be avoided) that I returned the whole box for a refund.

Of all the makers, good and bad, there always seems to be good and bad batches...that's the really frustrating part of buying files.....you never know what you're going to get. Even Bahco and Pferd have soft or brittle batches.


Mark Harrell:
I use files every single day, and have come to know the vagaries of what makes a good file pretty well.

This I’ll say up front: the biggest problem with files today—at least with those US manufacturers who moved the manufacturing base overseas after NAFTA (I’m ashamed to say)—is that there is no quality control, particularly with hardening/tempering. I always shy away from purchasing Nicholson or Simonds files with clean, new boxes and wrapped in fresh VCI paper inside and sealed inside of a plastic bag. These files are ‘hardened’ overseas where they are made in "xxxx" and "yyyy" to a Rockwell of far less than the 49-52 range one normally encounters with sawplate spring steel. The teeth on the file simply chatter off starting with even the first pass. It’s just the stupidest freaking thing in the world to expect to sharpen steel that hard with a file hardened 10 or more points less than Rockwell 50-52. Crazy. I’ve experienced same with Grobet by having purchased their ‘made-in-yyyy’ version.

I absolutely use the taper. I do a lot of shaping of saw teeth when confronted with an irregular toothline with the 1^st inch or so of a tapered saw file, and that’s a feature I consider quite important. Negative to deleting the taper - saw files were made that way for the reason I explained above. I believe it would be a mistake to make files without a taper.

I’m all for a longer file with the same characteristics of a shorter file (i.e., tighter corner). The main gripe I have is crappy quality with no quality control in the hardening/tempering process, such that the teeth break off new files so readily.


Isaac Smith:
For filing backsaws, my current favorites are Grobet three square files. I use them on just about every backsaw that leaves my shop, so long as the teeth are between 11 or 12 ppi and 18 ppi. I love them, and think they make the best saw files I have ever used. The sharp corners give me a larger gullet that is especially beneficial on the finer teeth. I have never had a problem with my gullets failing to clear the sawdust because of the lack of a really rounded gullet. I have also never experienced a problem with the saw plate cracking because the corner is too sharp. That may be a problem in a few older saws with brittle plates, but I have to think those would be the rare exception. With the quality control in modern steels, I don't see it as being an issue at all for my purposes.

The cutting length of these files are just about right for these files. They cut fast enough that more length may not be worth having. They are also the longest lasting files I have yet used. They just seem to go on and on. Finally, I really like the round tang, and would love to see that on other files.

My first thought is that I don't actually use the taper that much, and would not mourn its absence. The only exception may be when I file in new teeth from scratch, but even then I don't think I use it that much. I'll pay attention to that next time I sharpen a saw. Even for starting teeth, by far the biggest factor is how sharp and smooth the file is. If the file does not bite in and cut smoothly, it's very difficult to get an even spacing.


Pedder Broockman:
I would not miss the taper part of saw files.

My saw filing is done mostly at saws from 20-11 tpi. For that I use more and more needle files from F.Dick. The come in 3 pitches 1 coarse, 2 medium and 3 fine. For 20 tpi I use a 140mm pitch 3 for 11 tpi I use 200mm pitch 2. I think needle files are far better than saw files. They are slower, but the finish is better and they last longer. The longlasting depends on the not so deep pitch. You'll never break a teeth of a needle file but do that all the time on saw files.

I think your question about sizes is mostly about files for coarser teeth so I can't add much value. But some of my impressions:
The longer the better, I always take the double extra slim, as far as possible. A longer file gives a straighter push and a more consistent gullet. I would have no problem to use a 8" saw file.


Peter Evans:
I use as much of the file as I can, I also think the taper is designed to start the filing easier. I prefer tapers (there is a reason why it has been there a long time). I doubt blunt end files will fit in commercial file guides, and will make home made ones cumbersome.

I prefer different lengths - note how people file fine saws, usually very short strokes – and short files make this easier I think.


Mark Aylward:
Re taper & file length: the tool was made that way for a reason. Very small teeth can need a shorter stroke or too much metal is removed.
People need to know the finer points of sharpening and the theory behind things before they start changing the tools etc to make a tooth or gullet that is essentially faulty.

People are not aware of how a taper file works. The taper, as I was taught, is designed to keep a constant pressure evenly on both surfaces as you file. Without the taper it would be easier to favour one side or the other or change the pressure you are using as you file. I can’t find it in
any of the books I have, to show it in print, but the taper is the most paramount part of a saw file's features.

Rather than redesign saw files, I'd rather see the traditional profiles/lengths manufactured more commonly to a satisfactory standard.

law Hama did some research over the weekend, and the following is an extract from "The File in History" (1921)

You can see the full text here:
Full text of "The file in history; a description of the development of the file from the earliest times to the present day; a brief statement of the modern methods of file-making; and a description of the great variety of files and the numerous uses

or you can see an excellent quality scan of the original book here:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/...History-ne.pdf

The bolding below is my addition.

Files For Small Saws

This completes the list of single cut files adapted to mill requirements.

Single-cut saw files intended for hand saws and other small saws will now be taken up.
Heading the list of these are the taper saw files. Taper files are three-cornered files, similar to the
three square files, but usually smaller in length. The principal difference between them is the finishing
of the edges. Taper files have the edges slightly rounded, to leave a round bottom in the gullet of the
tooth, and these edges are cut as well as the sides.

(Fig. 42.)

The three-square file, which is always double-cut, on the other hand, has the edges left quite
sharp, and uncut. The taper saw file is usually single-cut and is used generally for sharpening hand saws.
For this reason there is probably no other file so widely used, or so well known.

EDIT NOTE: Therefore the 3 Square file is classed as an Engineer's File. Hallelujah, a definition at last!

Taper files are divided into three classes:

• regular taper file
• slim taper file
• the extra slim taper file, and some are made extra extra slim

The slim taper files are of the same general shape as the regular taper file, but are made of a
narrower section of steel for the same length. They are preferred by many on account of the greater
sweep or stroke obtained from the same thickness of file. The slim taper file is particularly adapted for
filing fine tooth saws.

The extra slim and extra extra slim taper are files similar to the slim taper files, but are made of
narrower stock and are adapted for filing the very fine toothed saws.

A variation of the taper file is the reversible taper saw file. These files are forged tapering from the
center toward both ends and are single-cut in the same way. This gives the advantage of two files in
one.

Still another variation is the blunt saw file. This is triangular in form, but parallel in thickness
instead of tapering to a point. It is "cut" similar to a taper file.

The Little Wonder saw file (illustration page 48) is preferred by some mechanics for filing hand and
other saws on account of its special shape and the thumb rest on the end.

Good Morning Fencefurniture

When you started this thread I thought that it would be a very useful reference. Now it has passed 125 posts and is still growing .....

From various sources, including above and several references on Dieter Schmid's web-pages, it appears that the Swiss-made Grobet, Vallorbe and F Dick files are the same products - just "badge engineered". But Grobet and other labels may be found on products sourced from USA, Mexico and goodness knows where else - and those may be very different, or indifferent, products.

As yyou hone your forensic investigation skills a clearer picture may emerge.



Fair Winds

Graeme

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Now it has passed 125 posts and is still growing .....

Indeed Graeme. I always thought that there would be quite a few posts as the research went on, with input from the various members. Also thought that it would end up with posts needing correction or modification, after the editing period has elapsed. Hence always intending to put up the summary documents, which are at post #110.

Today I have ordered two of the Japanese files from Glen Drake, and a few of the F.Dick's from Dieter Schmid.

Chambezio is checking if his local stores have the Pferds, otherwise I'll get some ordered in to Penrith.

Was going to get some Grobets from LV, but I don't think I'll bother.

Still waiting for ICS (USA) to get back to me, and still waiting for the Bahco agent here to get back to me.

Originally Posted by Claw Hama

I think the Vallorbe Needle is the file of choice for a lot of people once you get down to your finer pitches. The other concern I keep thinking about with the non taper files is that I am definitely a voyeur of the process and with a larger file (for the whole length) it has to be more difficult to watch when filing smaller teeth. Proof will be in the pudding and the testing one way or another. I'm keeping an open mind

Claw - I definitely agree that a narrow-sided file is the goods when doing fine teeth. As well as getting corners to fit in tiny gullets, a very good reason for selecting fine files for fine teeth is so I can see what I'm doing! However, we seem to be asking whether you should derive the fine end by tapering the file or simply make fine, straight files for fine work. I was pondering this question of taper on Saturday, while driving (~2,000Ks allows plenty of time to think!), and one reason for taper that I came up with is simply for visibility of the work. But if you made the whole file as thin as the tip in the finer sizes we're talking about, it would be too weak & would snap with little provocation. That applies to fine files, but not to larger sizes, so I still haven't cracked the secret of why triangular files are tapered, unless it is simply for visibility there too. On teeth at 12 tpi & larger, the gullets are bigger & even I can see them clearly around a moderate-sized file, so I reckon straight files would be fine in sizes suitable for 12 tpi & larger, & may even be preferable, but I have to say, tapered, schmapered, it isn't a big difference for me.

To illustrate my point about file strength, needle files come to a very fine point, as you know, which certainly helps me when placing them in 24 tpi sized gullets (the finest pitch I can manage without going completely crazy trying to keep track of where I've been & where I'm going!). In fact these files are dangerously sharp, and the end I fit inside the gauge-stick almost always snaps off, which isn't a big deal, as a good deal of the tip isn't toothed, so I just push the file further in. Losing that sharp tip is more of a bonus than a loss - it means I don't stab myself so often...

The ideal of minimising the number of files needed to cover the tooth sizes in an average workshop (well-supplied with saws!) is good, but would require some careful mixing & matching, and it's likely that what would suit A would not suit B - much depends on the tooth sizes of the saws in your kit. And settling on suitable 'average' corner radii would involve some interesting calculations & testing. A couple of people have talked about the possibility of too sharp gullets running the risk of setting up stress cracks. I think this is a small risk with larger teeth, but for small teeth (say 15 tpi & smaller), I doubt you could get gullets sharp enough (in proportion to tooth height) to cause problems with any of the files commonly available, including needle files.

Cheers,

Ian and everyone that's all very similar to my own thoughts, a lot of my earlier chatter was with Brett via email and he doesn't always relay the full story word for word I think if we could just get better quality rather than re-engineeer the file would be great. One anomaly in the mix was the Grobet from LN or LV, my experience with these was ok, I wasn't directly comparing them to others when I was previously using them but my recollection was that they were ok. I still have some newies in the draw that from memory I would be happy to use.

This paragraph that I posted previously Brett was an extract from the Habilis site not my waffle.

What is the difference between normal three-sided files and saw files?
Regular three-sided files have sharp corners that cut a hard angle. Saw files have corners that are ever so slightly rounded, so as to maintain the round gullet between the saw's teeth as one files them. This is to help prevent cracking the base of the teeth, which is easy to do if one does not work carefully and precisely. Because of technical issues in the manufacture of saw files, there is a limit to how small the files can be made. Therefore we, as recommended by Eddie Sirotich of Adria Tools, offer a small needle file to sharpen saws with extremely fine teeth. An alternative for very fine-toothed Western type saws is to use a small Japanese sword-form file, which also has a lightly rounded corner. But one must then file both the tooth's front edge and back separately. This in contrast to using the proper triangular file, which will file the front of one tooth and the back of the previous tooth on the same stroke.


I am glad a few more tappers came along I was clawing along on my own in the cold for a while

Rightio Claw, have added a sentence at the end of your "Notes" to reflect that thought.

Thanks Brett, if nothing else you have got me back on the forum with this thread Any other good debates in the pipe line?
It is very interesting, as I said before I'm all for redesigning and coming up with new and improved tools as with some of the rasps(by the way I love my reverse cabinet makers, works a treat) and a question like we have here does make you look at your tools, how you use them and teaches you a lot along the way. I'm sure we will all have learnt a few things by the end of this thread Bring on the testing.

Excellent feedback you've collected from the pro's there, FF.

Has anyone put in an order with Glen Drake for one of their non-taper japanese files ? Was about to yesterday but noticed there was no https on the page asking for my cc details - so have put in an email to them asking if I could pay with paypal rather.

Will also be adding in one of the feather files with my next order from ToolsFromJapan - can't file both sides of tooth at once but want to see how it works on the bigger rip saws - great potential for some crazy Rube Goldberg device to control the angles )

Was quite concerned at the "pros" issues with batch consistency even with the Groberts.

__________________________________
Robin

Originally Posted by QuarkVI

Has anyone put in an order with Glen Drake for one of their non-taper japanese files ? Was about to yesterday but noticed there was no https on the page asking for my cc details - so have put in an email to them asking if I could pay with paypal rather.

Will also be adding in one of the feather files with my next order from ToolsFromJapan - can't file both sides of tooth at once but want to see how it works on the bigger rip saws - great potential for some crazy Rube Goldberg device to control the angles )

Was quite concerned at the "pros" issues with batch consistency even with the Groberts.

__________________________________
Robin

Hi Robin

I ordered two from Kevin Drake yesterday, and have just sent him an email to ask him to add on an extra one for you if he hasn't already posted mine. I'll send you a PM.

Also getting one sent to Matt Cianci who is a bit interested in them (and ICS).

Also ordered a few F.Dicks from Dieter Schmid, so they should be here in a week or two.

The pros aren't just concerned about the occasional batch from Grobet - they're concerned about every single batch, except for Grobet Needles which are more than likely rebadged Vallorbes (as in the case of F.Dick). That is - they are of the opinion that whether they are Swiss or Indian, they are very "disappointing". For this reason I'm not going to bother including them in the test group - sounds like a waste of hassle and money.

Furthermore, they are about the same price and difficulty of procurement as F.Dick Saw Files, and we only need 2-3 brands to choose from. If the Bahcos and Pferds come up trumps then that will provide a local source of all but the smallest tapered saw files 4" DEST (whick F.Dick has).

I thought it interesting reading the reports from those fellas further up. Some weren't fussed with tapers while others would use nothing else. In my own experience I had to think hard why I use the tapered files. For me its getting the tapered section to "nestle" into the gullet making sure the file has contact with the teeth on either side of the gullet before the stroke commences.

Thinking through the process made me remember a little story. When I was an Apprentice we had to build an accommodation building for doctors at St George hospital in Sydney. The brick walls had been cement rendered and the same renderers had returned to put a skim of white gypsum plaster over the render. Having never seen the process and also not knowing why the plaster had to be put over the render I asked the plasters about it. They were a team of 3, 2 tradesmen and an apprentice who was one of the plasters son. They explained that being a government job the gypsum plaster gave the surface a finer fish and therefore a superior paint job was gained. The apprentice was mixing the gypsum plaster in their mixer (same one for cement render) as he was shovelling in the white plaster he would add a shovel of beach sand. I asked him why the sand and his reply was...."Ooh? I don't know.....(yelled out) Hey Dad, what's the sand for in this plaster?" Dad came outside where we were hawk and trowel in hand and was deep in thought. After a little while of thinking he answered"Oh the sand just breaks up the white plaster so it doesn't go gluggy".
As a team they all knew the recipe and that the sand had to go in and because they did it all the time they just didn't remember why.
Well I thought the story was sort of relevant