Thread: Saw sharpening files 101

NOMENCLATURE and DEFINITIONS
The various manufacturers have obviously NOT agreed on nomenclature standards. Furthermore, and with reference to the Pferd Catalogue 201 Saw Sharpening Files, you can find on one page a reference to “Double Extra Slim” taper files, and yet on another page they are called “Ultra Slim” taper files!

Then, when we get to the use of the word “cut” the confusion goes into overdrive. “Cut” can be used to refer to:
how the teeth of the files are cut
or
a “2^nd Cut” referring to the finish left by the file on the material that is being filed. In other words, it is used to follow a Bastard aka Cut 1 aka Coarse file – it is the second cut made by you, the operator – so why aren’t Smooth files called “3^rd cut”? Hmmm?

Another absurdly confusing name is a “3 Square” file which isn’t bloody square at all! It’s a Triangular file and by “3 Square” they mean that the edges haven’t been cut, just the faces. Cutting the edges results in them being ever so slightly rounded and therefore not “square”. Bloody ridiculous terminology really. It’s a bit like calling a Sausage Roll a non-Pie. Anti-Pasto also comes to mind.

The only way to avoid some of this confusion is for us to implement our own standards of nomenclature. I propose the following:

• QUALITY OF FINISH left by the file on the material being filed, and hence the classification of the file itself to be COARSE, MEDIUM, SMOOTH, DEAD SMOOTH
• The term “3 Square” NOT TO BE USED at all – we are talking Saw Sharpening files here and the gullets need to have material removed, so a smooth cornered file (which is what a 3 Square is) is completely irrelevant. This may be corrected later, after I get howled down.

OTHER DEFINITIONS
File length is measured from the shoulder to the tip

TPI Teeth per inch. As the file gets shorter the tpi increases within the same category (Coarse, Medium Smooth)

Bastard = Batard = Cut 1 = COARSE

Second Cut = Mi-Doux = Cut 2 = MEDIUM

Cut 3 = Doux = SMOOTH

Cut 4 = DEAD SMOOTH

Cutting – the process of punching the teeth or ridges into the face of the file. Material is NOT removed from the file, hence the cut area is thicker than the file blank (as can be seen by inspecting the uncut area at the shoulder).

Milling – the teeth are milled out of the file blank. Material is removed and the toothed area is the same thickness as the untoothed area.

Single Cut – one row of teeth or ridges cut in the file at 72° to one edge of the file. Saw Sharpening Files are Single cut for a superior finish on the material being filed.

Double Cut - two rows of teeth cut, one each at 72° to each edge of the file. The second row or layer of teeth is a shallower cut than the first. Engineer’s and Needle Files are Double Cut

Chip Breaker – can be added to a Milled File to break up the chips from soft metals. It is essentially the same as the second layer of cuts in a Double Cut File.

SAW SHARPENING FILE - a Single Cut file for a specific purpose (work it out)

Chain Saw File – a cylindrical (not tapered) Single Cut File. Subset of SSFs

Machete File = Blunt End = Triangular File, not Tapered. Subset of SSFs

ENGINEER'S FILE - a Double Cut File. These are the typical files that every workshop has, and come in many shapes and sizes.

MILLED FILE - Single Milled (as opposed to cut) File. Predominantly used in the Car Repair industry, so now almost redundant. A Plane Float is a Milled File with perpendicular teeth to the edge, and slightly softer at 52-58 Rc.

NEEDLE FILES - miniature Engineer's Files.

ESCAPEMENT FILES - the next size down again from Needle Files. Commonly use by Jewellers.
Annealing – the process of heating a file and slowly cooling to soften it before the toothing process is done. The slow cooling ensures the grain structure of the alloy is long, and therefore the material is not as hard or brittle, and can be machined easily.

Hardening – the process of heating and rapid cooling by quenching in oil after toothing to harden the file. The rapid cooling ensures that the grain structure of the alloy is very fine, and therefore the material is brittle. Because of the shock cooling, final hardness is difficult to control.

Tempering - the process following Hardening, where the product is reheated (but to a lower temperature than in Hardening) and rapid cooled once more to achieve the final desired hardness.

File Hardness – is usually around 62 Rockwell. The centre of the file body is not necessarily the same hardness as the teeth, which are the hardest part. This will vary with file thickness.

FF

Watching this one with interest. A very good potted history/ explanation to kick it away.

Btw your reference to tempering is slightly off. The process you have described is the "hardening" step. In this the freshly formed file is heated to a high temp and quenched rapidly in a suitable medium (most likely oil or water). This realigns the molecules to make the steel incredibly hard, but as you have rightly said extremely brittle.

The next step is "tempering." This is where the extreme hardness is reduced to make the tool tougher. With other tools they are heated to a moderate temperature (straw colour) and then rapidly quenched in a suitable medium again. I am not sure of the temperature (or colour) for files as they are amongst the hardest of all carbon steels. I am guessing it is a lower temperature than for, say, a chisel or plane blade. Or maybe files are not tempered at all.

As you know files are very brittle.

Great thread.

Regards
Paul

Bewdy Paul - just the sort of correction required where necessary.

I'll edit that post.

Earlier readers also note that post #2 has been heavily edited.

Milled File




Milled File, with Chip Breaker




Double Cut (Engineer's or Needle)



Single Cut (Saw Sharpening)

I'll split this into two parts - those that a still regarded is good quality, and those that have "previously enjoyed a good reputation". The criteria here is if enough people have said they are now "disappointed" then that will outweigh those who are still satisfied with them (perhaps they have purchased stock "from the old days"). THIS IS NOT A COMPLETE LIST - please add to it - even if you are only nominating the second category files - it will save people from finding that out for themselves.

I propose to do zero research, and even less posting on where you can get inferior files from.

STILL KNOWN TO BE GOOD QUALITY FILES

• Pferd - made in Germany, but also have production plants all over the world - caution advised Available in Australia (part range)
• Vallorbe - made in Switzerland. Their Precision Files are regarded as the benchmark. Available in Australia (tiny part range)
• Liogier - made in France. Regarded by 7 testers as reminiscent of the quality and value for money that was available in the 1960s. Available to Australia (full range)
• Grobet - has been a great Swiss made file, not all production is in Switzerland now (Mexico does some, and maybe some Sub-Continent production) Available in Australia (part range) EDIT: some doubt as to whether the are actually available here (as Grobet), or whether they are in fact Vallorbes.
• Bahco - production now in Portugal, perhaps elsewhere. I have read the the steel used is Swedish Sandvik. Available in Australia (part range)
• F.Dick (but no longer make their own files - rebadged files made by another manufacturer) N/A in Australia

HAVE BEEN GOOD - If you can find old ones that are unused or still sharp then snap them up, otherwise "reserve judgement".

• Nicholson - the American legend is now made in Portugal and Mexico
• Wiltshire - the Aussie legend is now made in the Phillipines (and I'm not even sure if that's still happening)

Please contribute more brands to either category.

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

NOMENCLATURE and DEFINITIONS
Bastard = Batard = Cut 1 = COARSE

Nah, "Bastard" is just such a wonderful word it has to be kept, especially in today's overly PC society. You can't replace it with a boring term like "Coarse" (even though it might be more logical). Someone might think the PC police have got to you (heaven forbid*).

My tuppence worth

Cheers, Vann.

*am I allowed to say "heaven" or does that have un-PC, religious overtones?

I hear you brother, and I have to say that it's the least troublesome one by far.....

Hang on, doesn't that then make it less of a bastard than the others?

when buying files for my father as a youngster the joy i got from walking into the local hardware and proudly asking for a "bastard" file
hee hee,i got to swear

Some price comparisons. This based on files for dovetail saws.

My experience to date is using the Swiss-made Grobet available from LN (USA). I have a couple double extra slim 4" left, and have been looking for more in this size. They are cheap enough ($5 each plus shipping to Oz) compared to other offerings. Lee Valley sell them at $6.50 each, but they are currently out of stock. Locally, LN (Australia) sell the Vallorbe (which I believe are really Swiss made Grobet, since Grobet acquired Vallorbe), which are $11 (but no international shipping charges to incur). And from the UK one could get the Bahco ($12 plus shipping), which Paul Sellers raves about. Amazon (USA) wants $56 (plus shipping) for a 10-pack. Avoid USA made Grobet files, which are made in Mexico, as are now Nicholson. Both have a very poor reputation these days.

What price are the Liogier?

I've just ordered an assortment from LN (USA). I would consider stocking up on more if the price was right, such as via a group buy.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Some price comparisons. This based on files for dovetail saws.

My experience to date is using the Swiss-made Grobet available from LN (USA). I have a couple double extra slim 4" left, and have been looking for more in this size. They are cheap enough ($5 each plus shipping to Oz) compared to other offerings. Lee Valley sell them at $6.50 each, but they are currently out of stock. Locally, LN (Australia) sell the Vallorbe (which I believe are really Swiss made Grobet, since Grobet acquired Vallorbe), which are $11 (but no international shipping charges to incur). And from the UK one could get the Bahco ($12 plus shipping), which Paul Sellers raves about. Amazon (USA) wants $56 (plus shipping) for a 10-pack. Avoid USA made Grobet files, which are made in Mexico, as are now Nicholson. Both have a very poor reputation these days.

What price are the Liogier?

I've just ordered an assortment from LN (USA). I would consider stocking up on more if the price was right, such as via a group buy.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek

100mm EST are about $9.00 including freight. Toothed area is 85mm long, 5mm across the face. Single Cut.
180mm Needle File Triangular are about $8.00-8.30 (Coarse, Med, Smooth) including freight. Toothed area is 83mm long, 4mm across the face, but they taper a little more to a point of course. Double Cut, but the Smooth are very very fine indeed - it'll be interesting to see what Ian makes of them.

Bear in mind that the A$ has dropped 8-10% in the last 6 weeks or thereabouts. For a year we could do a straight conversion from USD to A$ and even get a bit of change. The point being that if the prices you are showing are USD then you'll need to add about 8% to them.

Cheers
Brett

Derek, I am wondering about the Grobets you are using, and when you purchased them. According to this post by IanW from 18 months ago the Grobets were "disappointing" - see the post by heavensabove as well.

This is what makes it so damned difficult in selecting files these days. We may have used a brand (even fairly recently, say a couple of years ago) that was good, only to find that production is now "elsewhere" and the performance has subsequently suffered.

I was just looking at the LN USA site, and is clearly stipulates "Made by Grobet in Switzerland" However, on the Henry Eckert site (representing LN in Australia) they are listed as Vallorbe, but have the same code TF-4XXST, but no mention of where they were made (you'd think if it was Suisse that they'd be eager to say so). A search for "Grobet" on the HE site turns up zero results.

Eh? No wonder it's all confusing. Now I'm wondering whether Ian bought them as Grobets from HE, and they have since changed it to Vallorbe.....or.....what?

G'Day Brett,
I never really had a good think about file quality, just bought them and as they started to become ineffective, got a new one.
File handles on the other hand are sometime I'm very happy to reuse as I got a few sets of Vallorbe Handles about 15-18 years ago.
https://www.blackwoods.com.au/search...orbe/302028434
Leader in Swiss made files
The file tang screws into the handle cutting its own thread, thus giving a very positive grip on the file and so much safer in my humble opinion.
Anyways, I've signed up for the ride.
Cheers, crowie...

PS - Many years ago the old Naval Chaplin got us a beauty saying I'm very concerned about your mob of RAN apprentices; you've been making male & female fitting parts with bastard files.......long silences as we had in metal shop; then he burst out laughing.

This is the Pferd range of Sharpening Files:



This is a great read:

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Locally, LN (Australia) sell the Vallorbe (which I believe are really Swiss made Grobet, since Grobet acquired Vallorbe)

Vallorbe is a place famous for its metal work, and where Grobet are/were located. Some years ago the many filemakers in Vallorbe got together into some sort of co-operative (does this mean they got together to avoid competitive behaviour?). By now they might be one company.

Cheers
Peter