Thread: Sigma Power Select II Ceramic Water Stones

This thread has evolved from its original topic.... viz. Sigma Power Select II waterstones.

Thought I would add before that focus is completely left behind that I have and like the PS-II for knife sharpening, especially in the lower grits up to #1,000. As Thumbsucker points out, they are on the softer side and wear quickly, but they cut HSS and exotic steels quickly and for knives the flatness required with straight edge tools, like plane blades, is not so important. Almost all of my knife sharpening waterstones are on the softer side.

The prices are not so bad up to #1,000 if you buy directly from Japan. Home | Select II Ceramic Waterstone

But, if you have standard carbon steels and don't mind a soft stone for knives, the Kings are still a good price.

What is the preferred way of keeping the stones flat ?

Wet and dry paper glued to glass or marble ? Think Ive read that a few places .

I suppose just glue the paper down with Poly Glue or two pack ?

I did give my 10000 stone a try on my diamond plate and it surprised me how much I had worn it with only about ten sharpenings .

Heck I'm liking these things though . lethal sharpness ! And bringing my chisels back into true flatness seems pretty quick . Their out a little from not re flattening my oil stones enough .

I just used to flatten my oil stones on glass plate and 120 grit silicon carbide . Would this be OK on the water stones ? Or to Coarse?

I just got the 13000 and 1000 stones yesterday .

Rob

The generally preferred way I know of is to use a 400 Atoma diamond plate. I have one problem with that method and it is that the Atoma tends to stick to the stone being flattened.

atoma diamond | eBay

The advantage with the Atoma is that the abrasive can be replaced as it is glued onto the plate but mine shows no need of that over many years of use.

Originally Posted by auscab

What is the preferred way of keeping the stones flat ?

Rob

As you already have a diamond plate, depending on its grit and provided that it is flat itself, stay with that.

I use an Atoma #600 to flatten my stones. A #400 would work equally as well. Any lower grit than that and you may unnecessarily over flatten.

Wet & dry would be fine if you can get it flat enough when you glue it down. Double sided tape is the best option for that.

I flatten at the end of every sharpening session, starting with the finest stones and working down to the lower grits, that way I don't have to rinse off between each grit. I find doing it that way is quicker.

But, whatever flattening media you use, make sure you thoroughly clean it off before using it next time. Without care ferrule lower grits can embed in finer stones and give you grief.

Crosshatch the stone face with a pencil to 'read' progress back to flat.

I leave the slurry to dry on the stones, give them a splash to commence next session and you will have a nice slurry ready to go.

And, of course, you will find what works for you.

Thanks Chris and Neil. Ill stick with the plate Ive got then and see how it goes . Its an old Carbatec one . Seems flat but I suppose you cant tell till you test it out somehow . I did give my 10000 a go and it was sticking like you said Chris .

Rob

Something you may all know already, but I only discovered after years of flattening my waterstone wet - it's much easier done dry! If I use water, the diamond plate starts to stick after a few rubs & I need to stop & clean both surfaces. A while back I tried doing it dry and it was about 10 times easier, little tendency to stick, & all I need do is brush the dust off the plate after every 20 strokes or so. The recent rash of silicosis caused by dry-cutting man-made stone makes me careful not to inhale any of the dust, so maybe you should stick with wet-grinding if you work in a confined space! I don't need to mark the stone, mine discolours in use so I can easily watch the fresh clean area spread across the surface as I rub. I go from a fine diamond to the water stone and it is apparent from the swarf pattern after a few strokes if the straight edge off the diamond plate isn't making full contact with the stone, meaning it's (over) due for a flatten...

My combination 1,000/8,000 Ohishi is one of the harder stones that doesn't need soaking, but it still wears quickly & seems to be wearing faster as I go deeper into the stone. After 7 years of pretty heavy use there is only about 3mm left on the 8,000 side so I'll be looking for a replacement in another year or so.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by auscab

Its an old Carbatec one . Seems flat but I suppose you cant tell till you test it out somehow. I did give my 10000 a go and it was sticking like you said Chris .

Back when I bought my Atoma it was one of the few that was predictably flat. But, they are quite exy now and there are many other options readily available.

See discussion in another thread on that here. In that thread Ilya and Derek reported on their experience with some of those cheaper ones.

They might not last as long, but for the price they are almost disposable.

I have purchased some of the thin ones and they are going well so far. I plan to fix them to a flat backing plate (float glass is a cheap option) if they don't maintain their flatness.

The honeycomb style of plate reduces the 'stiction' issue.

Some stones are more prone to stiction than others.

Freshly wet dry stones soak up the slurry quicker and bring on stiction sooner. Flattening after sharpening when the stones are more deeply soaked seems to cause less stiction. Another reason for doing it in that order.

Just stopping in time (you get a feel for when stiction is about to happen) and adding a bit more water also minimises it.

For the past 10 years, I have flattened Shapton and Sigma waterstones with a Shapton diamond stone made especially for this purpose. As Neil pointed out, a diamond stone with continuous diamonds is less suited to this task than the “holy” type. The Shapton plate is the latter. Before I acquired this plate, I used a DMT Duo, which did a good job. The Shapton plate is very expensive and I have it only because it came from a deceased estate sale. It is getting to the end of its life, and I shall return to a DMT Duo.

The preferred grit is around 275. Anything finer is simply going to clog up. Finer is also going to experience more stiction.

I flatten watsetones under running water. The wetter the better. There is never an issue with stiction. I also only flatten before use since waterstones may change shape when they dry out. Shaptons and Sigmas do not create slurry of significance, so working this up is unimportant. Add a little liquid soap to the water used to spritz these stones. This removes the tendency to stiction, and it aids in keeping the stones, and your hands, clean and free of swarf.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I'm thinking of changing from the Sigma Select Power II to "splash-n-go" stones in lower grits, probably replacing the 1000 & 3000.
I'll probably keep the Sigma 10,000 as I have been using it like a splash n go and it seems to work fine that way.

My choices are down to Shapton Glass (been very happy with the glass 16,000 stone) or the Shapton Pro.

I have not used the Pro stones - so would be VERY interested in any opinions and experiences from those who have used both.

Also happy to hear from anyone thinking that its a waste of time, but if so, why?
I would like the convenience of not having to soak the lower grit stones before use.

( Bracing for debate - as it seems stone choice discussions can engender the same level of debate as religion )

Hmm.. I was sure there would be someone who has used both the Glass stone & the Pro stones & could comment!

I've got the Shapton glass and they work for me. When I bought them I figured if they were no good I could hang them on the wall and just look at them. I also have the Sigma series that Stu used to sell and the 13000 out of that is a superb finishing stone, the bottom two I no longer use.

Duplicate post

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Duplicate post

Fixed.

Missed this by a great margin - suggest SPII stones other than the 13k are best avoided. They are fast wearing short-life sintered stones and bettered for grinding by a norton medium crystolon (that must be used in oil, but it will grind anything well, including exotic knife steels that don't sharpen well on much).

Grinder and normal stones for PM V11. If wanting for speed after a grinder or a fast grinding stone, something like a 1000 grit equivalent diamond hone is probably the best choice.

If grinding is kept tidy (bevel very small), I haven't had any issue using just a washita stone to keep a smoother iron sharp (but the bevel must be kept very small). I tested V11 last year among other steels for wear. With same-abrasive, V11 doubled O1, left a brighter surface and bettered A2 by more than 60% and wore much more uniformly. It was only matched by CPM M4, but M4 has an enormous amount of in-cut resistance for some reason.

As mentioned here (at least parts), it grinds at half the speed of O1 (i'm sure it hones slowly, too, but we don't really notice that much - we notice when something has a gummy wire edge and is contrary, and it doesn't do that) and creates a lot of heat and little spark - CBN is nice, or light touch and lots of wheel dressing if not wanting to spend. I don't have any of LV's irons at this point (Sold the one I used for testing on ebay), but liked the steel well enough that I found the sheet equivalent (XHP) and made a bunch of irons for my stanley style planes.

If you heat it a little bit on the grinder, it shouldn't be too much worry. It tempers similar hardness around 380ºF to O1 steel depending on quench type (around 61-62 hardness), but if you manage to heat it all the way to 800F, it will still be 58 hardness at the hottest spot.

XHP is expensive if you can even find it, and I make irons almost entirely by hand (other than drilling holes for the slot before filing everything the rest of the way open), so there's no great incentive necessarily to make your own unless you want them to look a certain way or fit planes that LV doesn't make irons for. At the price they're selling irons, I'd bet they're not buying the steel from carpenter, but rather having someone else make it to spec (XHP was out of patent right around the same time V11 came out).



All of the planes in this picture of the XHP type iron. The ulmia plane on the board was sent to me by someone with a request to make them one (I'd made them another XHP iron to fit a small single iron smoother), but the bench planes with the round top irons are mine. It's wonderful stuff, but it doesn't require any special sharpening kit.