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  1. #376
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    Lyle

    I now see why you thought it to be a No.7. The stamp at the heel is always (I need to re-phrase that, "supposed to be") either the number of teeth to the inch or in the case of American saws the number of points to the inch. So that saw is 7ppi. It could have been a fine point rip saw, but looks to be a coarse crosscut saw judging by the tooth shape.

    The reason I say "supposed to be" is that sometimes it is not. It may have been changed at the factory, it may have been incorrectly stamped at the factory or most common is that at some stage in it's life it has been re-toothed.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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  3. #377
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    Thanks. I've learnt something today.
    I had a stack of saw handle medallions a while ago,and the nuts. I found them interesting. But gave them away along with the saws to a forum member as he was more into it than me.
    This stumpy saw came along with a reasonable handle and medallion. Couldn't leave it alone.....
    Lyle

  4. #378
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    I've come across a few stumpy saws over the years. I suppose there are situations where it could be useful to have a short, stiff saw, but there are plenty of specialist shorties dedicated to their roles, like stair saws, floor saws, etc., so it seems highly unlikely to me that anyone would deliberately hack a perfectly good saw in halves. However, I will qualify that statement by saying, "you never know!". My working hypothesis has always been that a cut-down saw like the one above is the result of a nasty accident causing a sharp crease in the blade. Your average Homo habilis would be likely to try something like clamping it in a vise or between a couple of 4x 2s and bending it straight. The result would most likely be just what we see here....

    Cheers,
    IW

  5. #379
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    Ian,

    thanks for your use of big educated words like 'Homo habilis', it makes me feel more noble if I apply that description to myself.

    Graham.

  6. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by macg View Post
    Ian,

    thanks for your use of big educated words like 'Homo habilis', it makes me feel more noble if I apply that description to myself.

    Graham.
    Well, Graham, you probably googled it already, but it roughly translates to "handy man" & is the name they've come up with for the first humanoid tool makers. I was being somewhat ironic applying it to our more modern colleagues, implying that their skills might not be so modern. I have no doubt H.h would've been able to chip a rock, attach it to a spear & secure dinner about 100 times more proficiently than I could, but they might've been a bit less handy with a hand saw.....

    Cheers,
    IW

  7. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Well, Graham, you probably googled it already, but it roughly translates to "handy man" & is the name they've come up with for the first humanoid tool makers. I was being somewhat ironic applying it to our more modern colleagues, implying that their skills might not be so modern. I have no doubt H.h would've been able to chip a rock, attach it to a spear & secure dinner about 100 times more proficiently than I could, but they might've been a bit less handy with a hand saw.....

    Cheers,
    Oy,
    I happen to know a few “Handman” and apart from being beautiful gorgeous sexy stunning individuals.
    Some of them are ok too.
    So if you don’t mind gentlemen may we get back to saws.

    Thank you Matt.[emoji849][emoji3064]

  8. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
    Oy,
    I happen to know a few “Handman” and apart from being beautiful gorgeous sexy stunning individuals.
    Don't be so modest Matt!
    Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.

  9. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
    .....I happen to know a few “Handman” and apart from being beautiful gorgeous sexy stunning individuals.
    Some of them are ok too......
    Watcha like with a spear, Matt? If you're doing lunch today, I'll have the mastodon, please...
    IW

  10. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    Watcha like with a spear, Matt? If you're doing lunch today, I'll have the mastodon, please...
    Bloody medium or well done.[emoji6]

  11. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
    Bloody medium or well done.[emoji6]
    If 'twere a Mastodon surely it would be rare .

    Regards
    Paul

    PS. So glad we are back on track for Simonds .

    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  12. #386
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    This thread of mine has been a little quiet of late, but I recently got a package from the States and there were two or three items of interest.

    The first one is or rather are a couple of No.14 Joiners or Bench saws. This was a design that has puzzled saw collectors and has been the subject of dedicated threads in the past. What were they used for and how did they differ from, say, a back saw or a panel saw in practical application? Without a back and being narrower than a panel saw the only thing I can think of is being able to poke them into narrow crevices. Whatever their intended use, they are not commonly found and yet in the case of Simonds are found in all the catalogues I have, which date from 1903 to 1923. I think it is safe to say it was an available model during the whole time Simonds made hand saws.

    I was beginning to despair that I would ever even see one of these No.14s and then I managed to acquire two of them in quick succession. At first glance they are the same:

    P1050393 (Medium).JPG

    Closer inspection shows some subtle differences:

    P1050394 (Medium).JPGP1050395 (Medium).JPGP1050396 (Medium).JPG


    The handle of the earlier saw on the left is much more refined and pleasing to both look at and hold. Even the wheat carving is more delicate.

    The earlier etch, again on the left, is both sharper and neater than the later saw. Note the mismatch between the Crescent Moon and Star medallion on the early saw and the later style etch. You may need to click on the pics to enlarge them for this. This could of course be that the medallion went missing and a replacement was fitted. However this is the second saw I have with this same mis-match. I would suggest Simonds were using up the old stock of the earlier medallion. The etch is "open" in the early saw compared to the shaded background in the later model:

    P1050398 (Medium).JPGP1050397 (Medium).JPG

    Very close inspection shows a surprising difference:

    P1050399 (Medium).JPGP1050400 (Medium).JPG

    Both blades are thick: Thicker than a 28" hand saw, for example, which typically would be .039" But these blades have different gauges. The early saw is .042" and the later saw a whopping .056". Clearly this is because of the lack of a back. Were the early saws prone to bending and for that reason the thicker gauge was employed later on? Both saws are 12ppi and 17" long.

    I think the early saw dates 1905 to 1910, and because of the medallion mis-match, very close to 1905. The later saw would be 1911 to 1922.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  13. #387
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    I was toying with starting a new thread for this post but in the end thought I would bounce it off the Simonds No.166, which was their Pattern Makers saw and I featured earlier in The Simonds Story. Disston, and others, made an identical saw, at least at first glance. These are the offerings from Simonds (at the back) and Disston in the foreground. You could lay them over the top of each other and the apparently the only difference is that the hounds tooth on the Simonds saw is fractionally larger

    P1050360 (Medium).JPG

    But the teeth are not the same:

    P1050361 (Medium).JPGP1050362 (Medium).JPG

    The Disston's teeth on the left above are not at 60 degs. I don't know what the angle is but I suspect it is the same as seen on their ACME 120 saws and would need to be sharpened with a cant saw file, However it would have to be a small file with 15ppi. The teeth are a mess on both saws pointing to even more difficulty than normal in sharpening. It looks as though the Disston saw was sharpened crosscut perhaps in the same way as the no set saws The Simonds version is sharpened rip.

    There is another difference. The Disston saw has a blade of .020" while the Simonds is .031"

    P1050363 (Medium).JPGP1050366 (Medium).JPG

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  14. #388
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    Paul what advantages did they have in pattern making.
    Apart from not having a back, for which I see a bonus of being able to cut through,an in tight spaces,
    Say if you were adjusting the wooden pattern on a large clogged wheel for instance.
    We’re say a traditional backed saw may be restricted.

    Cheers Matt,

  15. #389
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    Matt

    Truthfully, the only advantage I can see over a back saw is if you had to poke the saw into a hole and this is more a function of the narrow blade than the absence of a back. Possibly a pattern where something becomes a casting might require this. I have a friend who did his trade as a Pattern Maker. If I catch up with him I will ask for his opinion.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  16. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Matt

    Truthfully, the only advantage I can see over a back saw is if you had to poke the saw into a hole and this is more a function of the narrow blade than the absence of a back. Possibly a pattern where something becomes a casting might require this. I have a friend who did his trade as a Pattern Maker. If I catch up with him I will ask for his opinion.

    Regards
    Paul
    Paul,
    No I can see the advantage of a small stubby saw being able to access areas an cut through,were a back saw would fowl on its back after 3/4 inches (I need to use those oldies measurements)

    I wonder if pattern makers approached saw makers with there requirements?

    Cheers Matt.

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