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  1. #61
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    Paul,

    thanks for your help with trying to identify my Simonds panel saw,
    so it may be a # 7 and it may have been made between 1915
    (from the catalogue info) and 1920 (business name change).
    unfortunately the model number is worn away though.

    With the docking saw, I found it at the HTPAA tool sale in 2012
    it was in good condition, apart from the teeth, here is another
    picture of what they were like, it seemed as if it was used to cut bricks????

    You may have to enlarge to see the detail.

    Regard

    Graham.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  3. #62
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    Graham

    The teeth on your docking saw ranged from the sublime to the ridiculous. At one end there was what IanW refers to as cows and calves and the other end looks as though it had been jointed...on a brick, as you say.

    Just out of interest, have you tried it out since sharpening it? I would expect it to be fast cutting with those huge crosscut teeth, but I do wonder how much extra effort is required as it is one thickness up on the hand saws being 18 gauge.

    There is also one departure from the catalogue pictures in that your saw (and mine) both have a ribbed, perforated grip while the catalogues show a solid handle. I have pictures from the 1910 and 1919 catalogues and they are are both solid.

    The etch on the saw plate positively identifies the saw as a Simonds and I can't really see anybody grinding off the rivets and replacing the handle so I have to assume that the style was different at some point.

    The style was more like Disston's handle on similar purpose saws. This advertisement is from 1950, when Simonds still made their crosscut and docking saws. Only the handsaws stopped in 1926. Again the grip is solid.

    Simonds 1950 advert.JPG

    It enlarges quite well to see the details.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  4. #63
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    Ive seen saws end up like thatbafter cutting door openings in stud walls over concrete floors. If you drag the back tooth (teeth) you stand a better chance of preserving the front teeth 😉

    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTTC View Post
    ..Ive seen saws end up like that after cutting door openings in stud walls over concrete floors....

    I suppose, if the job's gotta be done...
    It'd be a toss-up, whether to use a decent saw (which can be re-sharpened in the event of an 'accident'), or a disposable hard-point. A file to sharpen the saw costs about the same, or more than the hard-point.

    Hmmm...
    IW

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post

    I suppose, if the job's gotta be done...
    It'd be a toss-up, whether to use a decent saw (which can be re-sharpened in the event of an 'accident'), or a disposable hard-point. A file to sharpen the saw costs about the same, or more than the hard-point.

    Hmmm...
    There are ways to cut without doing such damage. Even searjng the back of the saw on some cardboard or the like.

    It looked like a sad case of abuse.

    Personally I'd sacrafice a hard point saw if i felt i had to trash some teeth. It was one of my forst pre-aprentice jobs to cut out one such bottom plate. I did it with hammer and chisel .... much easier to sharpen

    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art

  7. #66
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    Default The Simonds that don't exist

    Well of course they exist, but they don't appear in the catalogues.

    I will take them one by one in separate posts and some have already been mentioned. The first to kick away is the Simonds Junior.

    This saw was specifically aimed at a young boy. It catered for a youngster who wants be just like his dear old dad. In reality it is just a smaller size panel saw, but the Simonds Junior has it's own dedicated etch.

    In this regard Simonds were following in the footsteps of Disston and Atkins who had similar models specifically targeting the aspiring carpenter. Disston had their "American Boy" and Atkins had the "Junior Mechanic."

    The primary difference was that the Simonds saw was from the top of the line Blue Ribbon range while the Disston and Atkins saws were more modestly priced.

    To own a Simonds Junior, you needed a seriously well-heeled dad.

    Simonds BR Junior.jpgSimonds BR Junior 2.jpgSimonds BR Junior 3.jpg

    All these boys' saws were made in only one tooth configuration: 9ppi. The Disston and Atkins saws were 20" whereas the Simonds saw was 22".

    This particular example has some remnant of the blue etch remaining.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  8. #67
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    Default Simonds No 310 1/2

    The Simonds No.310 1/2, which is a real mouthful of a description, and is uncommon. I have not seen another example other than this particular saw. When I purchased it, I didn't know if it was the biggest scam ever or something unique.

    I am confident it is genuine so in that regard I got lucky. It has the Saw and Steel medallion which dates it 1923 - 1926. The 1923 catalogue shows eight Blue Ribbon saws, the No.10 and the No.10 1/2. The top level No.4 and No.5 saws and the mid range 7, 8 and 9 saws have been removed.

    My conjecture is that Simonds found themselves with four narrow saws in the Blue Ribbon range (Nos. 361, 362, 371 and 372) but no narrow saw at the lower end of the range. At the top end they used the "3" prefix to denote the narrow saws and it looked to me that they applied the same system to the No.10 1/2.

    Why did it not appear in the catalogue? Well, in 1923 they hadn't realised the gap in the range as increasingly the market was moving towards the narrower lighter saws and by the time they were gearing up for another catalogue they pulled the pin all together on handsaws.

    Simonds No.310.5.jpgSimonds No.310.5 2.jpgSimonds No.310.5 3.jpg

    It may be the rarest Simonds I have.

    Regards
    Paul
    Last edited by Bushmiller; 24th February 2016 at 06:32 PM. Reason: Presentation
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  9. #68
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    Default Simonds No.51. No set

    Simonds No.51 most certainly existed but again was never published in the catalogues. It was a Blue Ribbon model and was a no-set saw.

    Like Disston's 120 ACME (and their No.77) and Atkins No.52 the saw plate was made from a fractionally harder steel (allegedly) and had a very pronounced taper to the plate which enabled it to run without set. It was made for cutting seasoned hardwood only. Relying only on set for clearance in the kerf, it was unsuitable for softwoods, which tend to be more "fluffy" and green timber.

    In fact setting the teeth for those mis-guided souls who thought it might be a good idea tended to result in the teeth snapping off.

    It was made in the era when Simonds used the dollar medallions and also during the era of the manufacturing medallion.

    It was expensive. $3.00 to be precise. In fact this saw sold recently:

    Simonds No.51. 3 dollar medallion.jpg

    for US$432!. It is still expensive.

    This is another saw owned by the same bloke, Mike Merlo, this time with the manufacturing medallion:

    Simonds No.51 10ppi.jpg

    Note that the later saw has five sawnuts compared to the earlier model with four.

    Very nice if you can get one.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #69
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    Default The "A" line

    This is the fourth (out of five, so you know what you are up for) of the Simonds saws that don't appear in the catalogues and it has nothing to do with high fashion.

    Quite a number of manufacturers produced saws from the factory with a metal protective strip beneath the lower guard of the handle. Simonds were amongst those and any saw they produced with this guard had the suffix "A" after the model number. As I have pointed out, they were not mentioned in any of the catalogues I have seen.

    This is a No.8A 1907-1922

    Simonds No.8A CM 011.jpgSimonds No.8A CM 008.jpgSimonds No.8A CM 001.jpgSimonds No.8A 010.jpg

    A No.5A panel saw from the Crescent Moon and Star period 1902 - 1906:

    Calendrar saw No.5A panel 001.jpgCalendrar saw No.5A panel 003.jpgCalendrar saw No.5A panel 002.jpg

    and another No.8A, this time from the the early Crescent Moon and Star period. Sorry, no close up as it is not my saw.

    Simonds 8A early.jpg

    My impression is that these "A" saws may have been phased out relatively early, but I have nothing factual to back up that assertion other than the style of etch even on the first saw mentioned here is early: It is purely a gut feeling.

    Regards
    Paul
    Last edited by Bushmiller; 28th February 2016 at 04:13 PM. Reason: Title added
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  11. #70
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    Default The Docking saw

    The fifth and last of the saws that don't appear in the catalogues is the Docking saw. I have to qualify that as the No.348 Docking saw does indeed appear as I made mention of back in post #24 (page 2 of this thread), but there is only a reference to the timber handled brother, the No.347.

    Back in that post I concluded that my saw was the No.347 with the timber handle, but I now have some doubts. It fits the gauge of the docking saw (18g) but not the teeth. It should be a very coarse crosscut at 4 1/2ppi similar to the saw Graham showed us a few posts ago. My saw is 6ppi and the handle is not typical of those larger crosscut types, which if the truth is told were extremely ugly.

    This is a much later Simonds docking saw possibly post WW2 ( Simonds only ceased hand saw manufacture in 1926 and docking saws were included with the large one and two man crosscuts):

    Simonds late docking saw 30 inch. 2.jpgSimonds late docking saw 30 inch.jpg

    Quite a different look to my timber handled saw which has horns:

    Simonds docking saws 004.jpg

    I have shown it next to my own metal handled saw, which is very similar to Graham's saw.

    These are the virtually identical etches. Metal handle on the left (I quickly cleaned that area enough to photograph. Timber on the right:

    Simonds docking saws 005.jpgSimonds docking saws 006.jpg

    That's about it for now. I do have one more saw that I can't quite place, but that will have to wait for another day.

    As I may have said before, I would love to see your Simonds saws. If you have any thoughts on the Simonds evolution this is the place to voice those thoughts and of course if some identification is required don't hesitate to post some pix (preferably lots of pix ).

    "Soar with Simonds."

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  12. #71
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    Default

    Thx for a good read as always

    Dave TTC
    Turning Wood Into Art

  13. #72
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    Default Hand Hacksaw?

    I know I said I was going to do this another day, but I realised I had the pix already so here it is. The sixth in a series of five .

    I was given this saw by an Ebay seller. He decided that because I was the only person expressing an interest ( I had entered into a little correspondence with him) I should have it just for the cost of the postage. What a wonderful bloke

    Simonds metal cutter.jpgSimonds Hand hacksaw 001.jpg

    I have since bought another saw from him.

    It was advertised as a 14ppi hand saw. I have never seen more than 12ppi on a hand saw. When I received it, I realised the teeth had no set and were a rip profile and that it was most likely a metal cutter. However, I cannot find anything like this in the catalogues.

    Simonds Fine tooth and hand hack 003.jpg

    Simonds had a hand hack saw, the No.15, but it had an adjustable handle, was made in a number of lengths and looked like this:

    Simonds Hand hack saw.jpg

    This is the two saws together for comparison:

    Simonds fine tooth and hand hack 6.jpg

    Although Simonds did not officially have this saw, Disston definitely did have a similar saw. Did Simonds make this saw as a one-off or was it just not on their list? I don't know.

    I still have to try sharpening it.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    ....I still have to try sharpening it......
    Well, Paul, if you haven't already put a file to it, one stroke should tell you what it was intended for. You will probably have to send this one out. Just be sure to warn them not to try & set it...

    Cheers,
    IW

  15. #74
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    Ian

    I think you are on the money with your comments and I am almost certain that it is a metal cutter (hack saw in other words) that looks like a hand saw. I have to sharpen a saw sometime today so I might run a file across a tooth to see if it makes an impression.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  16. #75
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    Adelaide
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post

    I suppose, if the job's gotta be done...
    It'd be a toss-up, whether to use a decent saw (which can be re-sharpened in the event of an 'accident'), or a disposable hard-point. A file to sharpen the saw costs about the same, or more than the hard-point.

    Hmmm...
    like dave cutting the bottom plate is reserved for apprentices , we didn't use chisel although i know some did, we always used a saw but soon learnt to never to touch the concrete, just a matter of care and cutting level (and something of completion or something to show the boss how well you did as a teenager, those last few strokes in particular), when ever possible we used to (still do) undercut where the doorway is to give a little room, but people being human sometimes forget.

    for cutting through nails, say moving a wall misplaced or any such thing in the roof or whatever , back in the old days hard tooth saws were not cheap, so they were not an option, generally you could pick up an old diston for $2 at flea market or second hand shop, or simply retire your old saw, give it an occasion sharpening. just a quick way of getting the job done, abusing the saw, certainly but the old saws where not as cherished as they are now. especially distons from from the latter years. eventually the building hardware stores stated to stock saws that were hardened with adjustable angle handles, which largley negated the need to use an un-liked handsaw. still occasionally because of the length and with of blade an old handsaw was the way to go.. sounds terrible to saw fanatics but the job needs to get done and that was usually the quickest way.

    great read all this thread, i have a bunch of simonds books, might like to share few things when i get the time. one little point that i find written in some books but others clearly state different with in depth background. is like the OP sys which is largely from one of the books, it says they made there own steel in 1901, but other literature with some in-depth back background says both akins and simonds from 1906 (before that imported silver spring steel from sheffield). diston made and electric furnace in 1906. Diston had fires around the civil war time if i recall correctly. i always wonder just how much making steel during the war (which one would assume means great profit) may have gave diston a great head start for the following years and buying out many of the other saw makers. just a passing thought i have.


    cheers
    chippy

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