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  1. #1
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    Default The Simonds Saw Story

    It came to my attention recently that many people in Australia are unfamiliar with the Simonds Saw and Manufacturing Company. In a way that is surprising as they were one of the four major saw manufacturers in The US, but in another sense perhaps they found their way infrequently to Australian shores. Out of all the Simonds I have, only two were purchased in Australia.

    In fact I read recently that on at least one occasion Simonds outsold the Disston brand, although I doubt this would have been on a regular basis. Simonds, like Disston, were a very sizeable outfit, but little is known about them. To my mind they are the enigma of the handsaw world and I suppose this, for me, is their attraction.

    By the start of the twentieth century Disston had the lions share of the market with the rest carved up between EC Atkins and GH Bishop. Although other brands existed they had been bought out by these three and were sold alongside their own brand name lines, often as secondary lines.

    Simonds had been manufacturing since 1832 and had a good footing in the crosscut saw market, but in 1900 opened their own steel mill in Chicago and this enabled them to compete with Disston, who also had their own steel mill. This set them both apart from other manufacturers as they had better control over the quality of their raw materials.

    So around the early 1900s, but no earlier than 1901, Simonds entered the market tentatively at first, and their production increased to a peak around 1919 (this is from the 1919 catalogue) where a total of sixteen different models were offered.

    Their presence in the market can be divided into four periods and these are categorised by the style of medallion seen on their saws. I will give rough dates, but readers need to be aware that nobody really knows as the information, unlike Disston for example, is sketchy.

    The first period 1901 (maybe) until WW1: Crescent Moon and Star medallion. (The most uncommon.)


    Simonds No.8. Crescent moon medallion 001.jpgSimonds No.8. Crescent moon medallion 005.jpgSimonds No.8. Crescent moon medallion 004.jpgSimonds No.8. Crescent moon medallion 002.jpg


    The Crescent Moon and Star was repeated in the single etch on the saw plate and was a bit on the basic side, but the saw quality was already showing signs of promise. The pictures above are on their No.8 model, which was a full depth skewback saw 26" long.

    The "Dollar" medallion era. Circa 1914.

    The 1914 catalogue shows a completely different medallion featuring a number with a blue enamel surround. The number is in fact the price of the saw and that depended on the model and size. I have seen values from $1.60 up to $3.50. This saw below is from their premium "Blue Ribbon" line and sold for $2.50. In fact it is typical that the price is also etched into the sawplate, which you can see here above the middle etch. "Blue Ribbon" saws always had three etches, while, apart from the early Crescent Moon models with a single etch, all other models had two etches.

    Simonds No.61. Dollar medallion 006.jpgSimonds No.61. Dollar medallion 001.jpgSimonds No.61. Dollar medallion 002.jpgSimonds No.61. Dollar medallion 003.jpgSimonds No.61. Dollar medallion 004.jpgSimonds No.61. Dollar medallion 005.jpg




    Those pix are on a No.62, which was a full depth skewback. The etches are a little difficult to read, but better shots to follow.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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  3. #2
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    Default Simonds Saws

    The third period from around 1915 (say) through to 1922. Medallion states Simonds Saw and Manufacturing Co and quotes 1887 patent dates.

    This is frequently quoted by people as the date of the saw, which is utter nonsense. It relates to the saw nut patent only.

    I even saw one person attribute a saw's date to the civil war era. I can only assume he was neither a woodworker nor a historian .

    Anyhow, back to the third era .

    Simonds No.8.5. 3rd medallion 001.jpgSimonds No.8.5. 3rd medallion 004.jpgSimonds No.8.5. 3rd medallion 003.jpgSimonds No.8.5. 3rd medallion 002.jpg



    The final period 1923 - 1926. Medallion states "Simonds Saw and Steel"


    The reference to the patents has disappeared and the product range has reduced to the eight blue ribbon models and the No.10 and No.10 1/2.

    This saw is a No.361, a straight back narrow (Disston called these saws ship point or lightweight) saw from the Blue Ribbon Range. In fact the blue ribbon saws originally had a blue etch, which is rarely present today. It is present on this example. The three etches are also clearly visible and some impression can be gleaned of the finish that was given to these top line saws.

    Simonds No.361. Late medallion 006.jpgSimonds No.361. Late medallion 001.jpgSimonds No.361. Late medallion 005.jpgSimonds No.361. Late medallion 002.jpgSimonds No.361. Late medallion 003.jpgSimonds No.361. Late medallion 004.jpg



    In 1926 Simonds ceased to manufacture hand saws. Just like that.

    Nobody seems to know the reason, although the post WW1 years had been tough. Simonds had reduced their product line (Disston rationalised their range in 1928) and perhaps they foresaw the depression looming and pulled the pin. These companies with their own steel mills and many products besides saws were sizeable. Before WW1 Disston employed over 3500 people. Simonds in 1923 employed more than 2200 people.

    The good part is we can date any Simonds saw within a 25 year period and say that their youngest saws are at least 88 years old at the time of this thread. Some saws ( crescent moon star medallions and dollar medallions) hit the magic 100.

    The final irony is that out of those revered saw manufacturers, only Simonds have survived, albeit in a vastly different form.

    Well I hope that wasn't too tedious. Also I can't pretend to be an expert on this subject and if any of you can add history and information to the above I would be most pleased to hear from you.

    Also I am still looking for Simonds, although not too many more (says he ) . My original plan was to collect an example of each model. I am still looking for half a dozen or so and some of the examples I already have could be better. I am keeping my options open .

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  4. #3
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    Default Simonds dollar medallions

    I turned up a couple of other values $1.60 and $3.00: One still has the enamel, the other doesn't.

    Simonds 3.00 medallion.jpgsimonds 1.60 medallion.jpg

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  5. #4
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    Default

    Thanks Paul.
    Really interesting read. I'll be keeping an eye out for Simonds now while I'm rummaging through the rusty piles in junk shops.
    Those were the droids I was looking for.
    https://autoblastgates.com.au

  6. #5
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    Hi Paul,

    Simonds always seems to be the one that drops under the radar... There is a pretty good company history here.. http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/...History-01.asp

    They were making scythes in the 1850's, and not sure when they start making saws, but according to the history linked above they started sawmaking at least sometime after 1878.
    So I'm thinking there might be another earlier era (1880-1900) in addition to those you've listed. Not handsaws evidently.

    I particularly like this story about a civil war revolver with a Simonds Medallion... http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/...r/revolver.asp confused the gun collectors no end.

    Ray

    PS.. According to Brian Welch.. http://galootcentral.com/membersites...onds/index.htm They didn't start handsaw production until 1901.. the 1889 catalog has a circular saw on the cover... but apparently no handsaws..

  7. #6
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    Ray

    My impression is that before 1900 Simonds made one man and two man crosscut saws and through most of the years until recent times they made circular saws. Indeed their catalogues devote huge amounts of space to various types of these saws.

    It seems that the humble hand saw was a missing part of their armoury for a long time.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  8. #7
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    Hi Paul,

    They still make circular saws, and bandsaws etc.... well according to their website anyway... http://www.simondsint.com/circularsa...s/default.aspx

    The history on the company web site is pretty good as well http://www.simondsint.com/aboutus/hi...ages/1832.aspx

    As to why they stopped making handsaws in the 1930's, good question... I do know they made armour plate, during WW2 as did other sawmakers like E C Atkins, maybe there was more money in armour plate than handsaws.

    Ray

  9. #8
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    Ray

    The Simonds website concentrates on the years outside of the handsaw manufacturing era. I don't really understand why there is such a big secret .

    I suspect they don't really know themselves. Was there a fire and all records burnt? Having said that, it is the intrigue that whets my appetite for these tools. Gradually I am piecing together some sort of story from the sites you have mentioned in your earlier post and from Simond's catalogues and of course the saws themselves.

    At best the information is sketchy and at worst non-existent.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #9
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    Default

    Thanks Paul, very interesting and quite timely. Just this week I picked up a Simonds saw, the medallion dates it to the third period you describe. It's a 5ppi rip saw:





    Cheers

    Tim

  11. #10
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    Tim

    That's an excellent pick up. The placement of sawnuts make it a Simonds No.8 or less likely a No.9, which was the narrow skewback model. In fact all the Simonds skewbacks shared that same sawnut placement, but some models had wheat carving on the grip and some on the grip and flat. This helps to distinguish when the model No. is absent from the etch: It always seems the first part to disappear. There is one exception to this. The No.10 1/2, a skewback, features two different completely different patterns.

    I would expect your saw to clean up very nicely and reveal a good etch (hopefully with the model No. beneath). The saw looks as if it has hardly been used and may well be close to it's original depth if indeed it has ever been resharpened.

    In a way I am hoping that it is a No.8 as I am still chasing a No.9 and I will be green with envy if it is that one .

    Now the biggest problem with restoring these saws is allocating the time to perform all the necessary! However, if you get around to it, perhaps you will let us see the finished result.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  12. #11
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    Addictions are strange things, I'm told . I originally set the parameters to handsaws only and in the first instance I was going to collect anything that took my fancy. It became quickly apparent that this was not going to be practical on my beer budget. So I restricted the scope to Simonds (and a couple of models from Disston and Atkins so I couldn't be accused of absolute prejudice when it came to espousing relative qualities.)

    However, the inevitable occurred and my interest (addiction/obsession/fetish even) extended to other Simonds products.

    I mentioned earlier in the thread that the major companies produced secondary lines that did not bear their name, but were marketed under the name of companies they had bought out or sometimes they just used the "Warranted Superior" medallion. I think Disston made use of both of these marketing techniques.

    Simonds had a two other ranges of saws. Their secondary line was manufactured under the name Bay State Saw Maufacturing, which was a company they had purchased. They produced a home handyman line too, which had the names of native Indian tribes or personalities (King Philip, Mohawk, Osceola, The Sioux, Iroquois and Pontiac.)

    Under the Bay State name they produced the No.25 (skewback) and the No.26 (straightback), which although regarded as a secondary line actually sold for the same price as Simonds' bottom of the range No.10 and No.10 1/2.

    Now to the point: I happen to have a very tidy example of a No.25 .

    Bay State No.25 001.jpgBay State No.25 002.jpgBay State No.25 003.jpgBay State No.25 004.jpg

    What I don't know is if this saw dated from before the acquisition by Simonds or after and I don't know when Simonds bought out Bay State. As you can see, the saw pictured has intricate wheat carving on both the flat and the grip. Simonds normally reserved that for their better grade saws (only a cosmetic function of course) and my 1919 catalogue shows the No.25 with wheat carving only on the grip.

    This leads me to consider that it may be before the Simonds ownership, but this is pure conjecture on my part. Simonds were remarkably inconsistent with their carved handles.

    However, whatever it's hereditary, I particularly like this one and Ian Wilkie was kind enough to sharpen it for me when I visited him recently. This saw didn't need much attention (a little cleaning of the sawplate) and the handle has had nothing done to it except an application of wax. Not many of my saws arrive in such a good state.

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  13. #12
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    Interesting that there is a guy holding a saw in the 1850s photo ... but I guess it's "tools we use" more than "tools we make"




    Is this RayG's first link? ah ... Brian Welch ... yes I think so ... http://sawnutz.galootcentral.com/simonds/

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  15. #14
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    Tim

    The placement of sawnuts make it a Simonds No.8 or less likely a No.9, which was the narrow skewback model.
    Paul
    Spot on Paul. Even without any cleaning the etch is quite clear... Except for the model number... However with a bit of squinting (and now knowing what I was l looking for) I can definitely make out the "NO.8" designation (just above the reflected light).



    Overall it's in pretty nice shape so shouldn't need too much cleaning up, but when I do get around to it I'll post some more pics.

    Thanks again and good luck tracking down that number 9.

    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmymacca View Post

    Overall it's in pretty nice shape so shouldn't need too much cleaning up, but when I do get around to it I'll post some more pics.


    Tim
    Excellent Tim

    It's always good to find more addicts are out there .

    For me there is an initial excitement when a saw is received or as in your case picked up at a sale, but perhaps the best moment is when cleaning the saw plate and it gives up it's secrets .

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

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