Snipes Bill plane

**IanW** · 25th July 2021, 10:47 AM

Yep, I'm inclined to join the chorus against using an irreversible glue, but there are extenuating circumstances in your case. The slightly warped insert would be my main worry, you may not be able to get full surface to surface contact, & epoxy is a better gap-filler than hide glue. You could argue that the piece is never likely to need to be removed in the future, the plane won't see enough future use to wear the boxing sufficiently that it will need replacing. But of course, who knows for sure?

I'm naturally hesitant to use irreversible glues for re-gluing anything that's already been glued. Done it & been sorry because they often didn't take due to residues of other glues & even sorrier when I then had to try & clean up a double mess. Hide glue is by far the safest alternative, always reversible, sticks to itself (unlike most other glues), and easy to clean up in the event of things going wrong & needing to start over. The liquid stuff is reputedly not as strong as the old cook-up-in-a-pot type, but is still plenty strong & used by instrument makers, which I think is a fair recommendation.

I also read somewhere (waaay back) the boxing should be oriented so that the end-grain forms the wear-surface (which it is on the couple of planes I own that are 'boxed'). Since Box is never a very large tree, you'd need a pretty decent-sized old tree to get wide enough pieces unless you glue up a few bits side by side. There must be a dozen alternatives to Buxus sp. as a 'boxing' wood. Somewhere, I've seen a list of suggested alternatives, but can't remember where, so that's no help. (There's a tree that grows from northern NSW to Nth. Qld. called Yellow boxwood ((Planchonella pohlmaniana) that sounds like it could be an excellent substitute, but it's not a commercial species, so goodness jnows how to get hold of some. I'd like to try it out as a threading wood..)

There is no law that says it has to be a particular colour, so if making a new plane, I would feel free to experiment. I used a Casuarina for the heavy-wear corners on a dovetail plane I made, which stood up well in use, & I reckon it might work well as boxing. Woods like Tallow wood (E. microcorys) & Crow's Ash (Flindersia australis) spring to mind as others to consider. I expect "Planemaker" has done some experimenting along these lines & may have some good suggestions of suitable 'boxing' woods....

Cheers,
Ian

**Pac man** · 25th July 2021, 11:08 AM

incidently I found this video about gluing in boxing

Caleb James Chairmaker Planemaker: How To Glue In Boxing On Moulding Planes

**macg** · 25th July 2021, 11:17 AM

Hi M.A.

I agree with the others that say to use the traditional glue for your repair.

Also if you need to replace the warped piece why not use an old boxwood rule
they are readily available in all sorts of sizes.

Hope all goes well...

Graham.

**Mountain Ash** · 25th July 2021, 11:08 PM

Hi all. Some hide glue has been ordered but I did use PVA to glue broken tip back together. Thanks for the list PM, I bought mine from some bloke in Leongatha (same price as Timbecon but better postage rates

). Thanks for the suggested timbers Ian, I have plans for more planes. Great idea Graham! I'm wondering if modern folding rules might also work, I have quite a few that are to hard to read the markings now. And I will check out the video after posting this.

**auscab** · 26th July 2021, 02:01 AM

Jelly is hide glue with sugar and flavor added . The only glue that we eat as well as use on wood things !

Plain Gelatine powder is also available at supermarkets. If you wanted to try it . Its more refined and stronger as well .
Probably a lot more expensive than the old Pearl glue though .
Woolworths Supermarket - Buy Groceries Online

Read this .
FRETS.COM

What sort of place in Leongatha sells it? That's local to me . Not that I need any more just interested.

Its been sold here on the forum as well , new stuff coming soon . Sounds good .

HIDE GLUE - Joiners Pearl Glue

**Mountain Ash** · 26th July 2021, 09:03 AM

Hi Rob

Screenshot_20210726-075400.jpg

D S Fasteners. I was trying to see how realistic the delivery times were going to be and was surprised to see Leongatha as the point of origin. I had a look at his other items and quite a few things were sold under his brand (funnily enough, a lot of screws). Thanks for the tip on Gelatine powder

**IanW** · 26th July 2021, 09:13 AM

That's really useful info Rob! I'd read many years ago that food-grade gelatin isn't suitable for glue for various reasons, mostlly to do with how quickly it gels as it cools. Seems like the solution is just to make it a bit more liquid than the pearl glue....

The makeshift glue-pot described in the Ubeaut page Rob linked to is probably the easiest for anyone who only uses hide glue on a very occasional basis, but if you start using it a fair bit you'll soon look for something easier to manage over long gluing sessions. Baby-bottle warmers are often recommended, but wax-warmers also make good glue pots. You can buy these for anything from $20 up. The one I've been using for the last dozen years cost about $40 from a place that supplies beauty salons (just did a search & prices seem to have doubled over the last 12 years!), thinking that a gadget aimed at commercial users might be a bit more durable. Can't say if that is so or not, the el-cheapos would probably be fine for someone who only uses hide glue very occasionally. The plastic lever that controls the thermostat on mine got broken a few years ago, but it's not something that needs altering regularly. However, the hide glue ate holes in the thin aluminium inner container after a couple of years. I found a stainless-steel milk-frothing jug in a kitchenware store & cut that off to fit in the warmer. That worked fine, until the glue chewed a couple of pinholes through that, too, so I'm on my second milk jug....

**auscab** · 26th July 2021, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by IanW

That's really useful info Rob!

Isn't it Ian . Fred Fords website . One of the most amazing websites Ive seen . All Luthier stuff but there plenty to learn in there that can be applied to any fine woodwork . The Luthiers take everything woodwork to its utmost limits .

**auscab** · 26th July 2021, 07:56 PM

Here’s a picture of the Moon plane makers .

Edit . New pics.
Plane Makers a (2).jpg Plane Makers a (3).jpg

**IanW** · 27th July 2021, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by auscab

....... The Luthiers take everything woodwork to its utmost limits......

Don't they ever!

Way back I aspired to luthiery - it combines my two loves, wood & music, in the most constructive way I can imagine. However, life, kids, a career in a totally unrelated sphere, & all manner of other excuses meant it remained a dream. Perhaps my tool making is/was a substitute - they are "instruments" after all, and saws & planes do make a bit of sound. I'm sure Mozart could've worked them into a symphony if he'd been commissioned.....

Ian

**Bushmiller** · 27th July 2021, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by IanW

Don't they ever!

Way back I aspired to luthiery - it combines my two loves, wood & music, in the most constructive way I can imagine. However, life, kids, a career in a totally unrelated sphere, & all manner of other excuses meant it remained a dream. Perhaps my tool making is/was a substitute - they are "instruments" after all, and saws & planes do make a bit of sound. I'm sure Mozart could've worked them into a symphony if he'd been commissioned.....

Ian

Ian

No need to substitute. You could still combine your tool skills and music. How about a Musical Saw?

Some information here:

Saws made for music – Saw Lady®

Somewhere I have a Simonds' Musical Saw.

Regards
Paul

**IanW** · 27th July 2021, 01:34 PM

Paul, I thought someone would hit me with that.

What I had in mind of course, was something a little more elaborate, perhaps something like a 6-course mediaeval lute, which has a bit more timbre (& timber?) than a saw....

I've always been fascinated by their elaborate construction (they sound pretty good too in the right hands!)....

**Bushmiller** · 27th July 2021, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by IanW

Paul, I thought someone would hit me with that.

What I had in mind of course, was something a little more elaborate, perhaps something like a 6-course mediaeval lute, which has a bit more timbre (& timber?) than a saw....

I've always been fascinated by their elaborate construction (they sound pretty good too in the right hands!)....

Ian

At least I didn't disappoint in that regard.

Some of the early and less well know instruments are fascinating.

Regards
Paul

**Mountain Ash** · 2nd August 2021, 07:21 AM

Hi all. Time for an update.

20210801_161939.jpg

20210801_162027.jpg

With hide glue in hand, I reattached the boxwood. Tried clamping and while it helped seat the boxing in the rebate it also pushed the piece away from the sides. Hand pressure only, which foiled my initial plan for the curved rear piece. After some judicious planing I was able to get it parallel (the rear piece has a small gap which I will have to live with, shouldn'taffect function). After everything dried, high spots were removed, boxing flushed to the body and the profile re instated. Blade may have to be ground just a smidge after I get a better feel for using the plane.

Photos were taken after cleaning with metho. Plane has since had my 3 in 1 applied with paste wax to follow sometime soon

Does anyone know why "H" is stamped in one end and "W" in the other?

**D.W.** · 4th August 2021, 12:29 AM

replacing the boxwood is out - if the plane is made correctly, the boxwood will have its grain on a diagonal so it bears some end grain against a cut (to wear as slow as possible).

You need to create a profile fixture for the sole that will allow pressure to be applied to the boxwood. I wouldn't add too much humidity - the box will be the last to absorb it but the beech will take in a bunch and then possibly shrink after glue.

You need to see if you can ease the boxwood back into straight and if you can confirm that you can, you can glue it (With hide or a thin epoxy or whatever you want). Don't worry too much about the long-term value of the plane - if you refit it and it's in good shape and then has some handling crud on it, it'll be worth much more than it would be with boxing spilling out.

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