Thread: Another - "How Old is my Spear & Jackson Saw?" Question

The backsaw is likely 60/70tes but the crosscut is perhaps a bit older as its got a proper handle. Just my guess and I will await the wisdom of the real saw junkies.
Regards
John

Tom

I think John is correct with his assessment of 1960s for the back saw as it fits the No.47 model from a 1961 catalogue and that style did not feature in pre-war catalogues.

The hand saw is more difficult. Is it a panel saw (ie 24" or less) as it has only four screws including the medallion? Also, it is possible that it has a "non-break" handle. If this is the case it will have a dowel placed through the whole length of the grip and will be visible at each end. The medallion with the coloured surround was used both pre-war and post-war. The red was symbolic of a higher end model and in the 1961 catalogue was referred to as colour-coded.

However, this same medallion style occurred before the war too in the same shape handle, although not necessarily in the same models. Is there any evidence of an etch? If the two saws came from the same source, I would suggest they are both early sixties. The hand saw fits the Spearior No.88, but could be a different model from earlier times.

Regards
Paul

Hi Tom. Nice saws. With regards to the panel saw, I'm not sure if the medallion and the ring around it match. My understanding is that S+J date their beginnings to 1760 and the 200 years mentioned on the red ring would mean that yes this is a 60's saw. But why would S+J put a WS medallion on their top of the line, anniversary saw? And is the handle beech? Paul will know for sure but I think I have seen those 60's style handles on panel saws too.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.
The panel saw is 22 inches, but has no dowel through the handle.
As for an etch - maybe under all that when I get it cleaned up.
I am unsure what the timber of the handle is.
Here is another shot
Tom

S&J5.jpg

Originally Posted by Scribbly Gum

.....I am unsure what the timber of the handle is.....

I think you can safely bet your shirt on Beech, Tom. It looks like it & it was the wood used on at least 99% of British saws....

Cheers,
Ian

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Tom

I think John is correct with his assessment of 1960s for the back saw as it fits the No.47 model from a 1961 catalogue and that style did not feature in pre-war catalogues.

The hand saw is more difficult. Is it a panel saw (ie 24" or less) as it has only four screws including the medallion? Also, it is possible that it has a "non-break" handle. If this is the case it will have a dowel placed through the whole length of the grip and will be visible at each end. The medallion with the coloured surround was used both pre-war and post-war. The red was symbolic of a higher end model and in the 1961 catalogue was referred to as colour-coded.

However, this same medallion style occurred before the war too in the same shape handle, although not necessarily in the same models. Is there any evidence of an etch? If the two saws came from the same source, I would suggest they are both early sixties. The hand saw fits the Spearior No.88, but could be a different model from earlier times.

Regards
Paul

Thanks Ian - beech for the handle.
I have a few different S&J saws and not a bad one between them.
I particularly like the feel and angle of the handles on the backsaws like this one - even though they are generally not popular with purists.
TS_221011_001.jpg

Paul, the red coloured surround for the medallion I have seen before on S&J saws - and also black on others.
S&J2.jpg

Was there a hierarchy of quality delineated by different colours - and if so - which is which?
Thanks again
Tom

Tom

With regard to the back saw handles, I don't think it is so much a "purist" thing but a departure from the craftmanship of earlier decades. The more modern look seems to lack character and was designed so a machine could cut it out of a timber blank.

Anyhow, to your question about colours, this may assist from the 1961 catalogue:

S and J colours.PNG

Your panel saw will have one less saw screw than the full size hand saws at 26" which are depicted in the catalogue so it could be a Spearior or a Sovereign

S and J 1961 cat.jpgS & J 1961 cat p2.jpg

The back saws.

S and J backsaws 1961 cat..jpg

Regards
Paul

That's great Paul - thank you.
I'll go and have a closer look at my S&J's now and see if I can figure out where I saw that "black" medallion surround.
Maybe it was blue -
I'm sure I have a green one as well.
Pix to follow
Tom

Handles are very much an individual thing to be sure, & what suits one hand may feel like a monstrosity to another. I've come to the conclusion after making one or two handles that possibly the first thing people notice with a saw is the hang-angle, but it's not a conscious thing, it's more like "Aha, this saw feels 'balanced'", and you just find it easy to place & comfortable to use. Because we saw with the work at different heights (much depends on one's stage of life & fading eyesight too!), the 'perfect' angle & setting of the grip will vary from person to person. You can tolerate a fair range quite easily, but when you pick up the saw that's just right for you, it's quite striking how well it 'fits'.

While it seems pretty obvious to me now, it dawned on me rather slowly. Back in about 1980 I acquired a brand-new dovetail saw, an 8" Tyzack 'Non-pareil' 15tpi with a magnificent folded brass back. But the handle was a huge disappointment, 'fugly' doesn't begin to describe it. So I re-made the handle, in walnut, copying the closed handle on a friend's old Disston, but leaving off the bottom loop because I wanted a pistol-grip handle like I'd seen on the saws in an article on Duncan Phyfe.

Original replacement.jpg

Over time I acquired several more backsaws, and eventually started making them, so I ended up with a fair number of saws (I'm not admitting to how many!), but I always preferred using my re-handled Tyzack & eventually figured out it was the hang-angle of the handle that did it. By sheer fluke, I had made it just right for my bench & the height I usually saw dovetails & tenons at. But it did look a bit weird - just dropping the 'return' from the Disston handle didn't make it look much like the handles on the Duncan Phyfe saws, so eventually I re-made it as a closed handle (being very careful to preserve that hang angle):
Second replacement.jpg

So if the grip angle is just right for you, the rest is really just cosmetic. I like a fully-contoured look (& feel), with additional curves & flourishes but it takes a ridiculous amount of time to make a handle like this:
B_wood tenon.jpg

The shape of a handle like that is more complex than it looks, this shape, copied from a 'Kenyon' saw is far easier, with a more even roundover not the varied oval cross-section of the one above:

Baby Kenyon 2.jpg

It's good to hold, I have to admit - this little saw has also become a firm favourite for very fine stuff.

I think the next most important determining factor is the weight of the spine. Again this is going to be personal preference - it also seems to be a national thing, with older British saws having noticeably heavier spines than American backsaws from the same era. About a dozen years ago, when the craze for "ultra-thin" was at its peak, I made this 9" dovetail saw with 15 thou plate and a spine that is about 2/3rds the weight of the Tyzack. Everything just clicked with this saw, it rapidly became my favourite dovetailer and saw for just about any small job:
10 yrs on.jpg
Using this saw is like driving a well-balanced sportscar & makes the Tyzack feel more like a working ute. But it's not everyone's cup of tea, some people don't like it at all, some are indifferent, & some like it.

So when I see blokes gathering up lots of backsaws, I suspect they're on a similar journey, looking for those subtle & not-so-subtle differences that hit the Goldilocks zone for them. I suspect that eventually, you'll settle on 3 or 4 saws that do everything you need & the rest can go back on the market for someone else to find their perfect saws.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Tom

I think John is correct with his assessment of 1960s for the back saw as it fits the No.47 model from a 1961 catalogue and that style did not feature in pre-war catalogues.

The hand saw is more difficult. Is it a panel saw (ie 24" or less) as it has only four screws including the medallion? Also, it is possible that it has a "non-break" handle. If this is the case it will have a dowel placed through the whole length of the grip and will be visible at each end. The medallion with the coloured surround was used both pre-war and post-war. The red was symbolic of a higher end model and in the 1961 catalogue was referred to as colour-coded.

However, this same medallion style occurred before the war too in the same shape handle, although not necessarily in the same models. Is there any evidence of an etch? If the two saws came from the same source, I would suggest they are both early sixties. The hand saw fits the Spearior No.88, but could be a different model from earlier times.

Regards
Paul

Underneath all that grunge there was a faint etch - "888"

IMG_20221013_120318.jpg

Interestingly. the saw plate had five holes for a four hole handle

IMG_20221013_120421.jpg

And I wonder what the "S" - or is it an "8" - means near the errant hole?

Tom

Tom

That is intriguing. The extra hole is usually indicative of a replacement handle BUT in those instances I would expect multiple additional holes rather than a single hole. Also it looks more like a manufacturers punched hole so I am wondering if it was just a manufacturing error that was "allowed" through. The "8" near those holes looks more like the stamp for the ppi which is normally found down at the heel, perhaps 1" up from the toothline on a handsaw. Does it coincide with either 8ppi or 7tpi? Either way I have not seen it under the handle.

The "888" is even more of a mystery. I can't find that in any catalogues from 1915 to 1970. There are "88", "88A," "88B," and "88N," but nothing with "888."



Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Tom

That is intriguing. The extra hole is usually indicative of a replacement handle BUT in those instances I would expect multiple additional holes rather than a single hole. Also it looks more like a manufacturers punched hole so I am wondering if it was just a manufacturing error that was "allowed" through. The "8" near those holes looks more like the stamp for the ppi which is normally found down at the heel, perhaps 1" up from the toothline on a handsaw. Does it coincide with either 8ppi or 7tpi? Either way I have not seen it under the handle.

The "888" is even more of a mystery. I can't find that in any catalogues from 1915 to 1970. There are "88", "88A," "88B," and "88N," but nothing with "888."



Regards
Paul

Thanks again Paul.
The saw is a 10 ppi and it is stamped at the heel - it didn't show up in the picture that I took.

Out of interest, I went looking for my "black" medallion surround.
It may be blue, but looks closer to black to my old eyes.
It is on a Spearior 88

IMG_20221013_124407.jpg

IMG_20221013_124431.jpg

Both saws have cleaned up nicely
Tom

S&J5.jpgTS_221011_001.jpg

TS_221014_001.jpg

TS_221014_001-2.jpg

Originally Posted by IanW

Handles are very much an individual thing to be sure, & what suits one hand may feel like a monstrosity to another. I've come to the conclusion after making one or two handles that possibly the first thing people notice with a saw is the hang-angle, but it's not a conscious thing, it's more like "Aha, this saw feels 'balanced'", and you just find it easy to place & comfortable to use. Because we saw with the work at different heights (much depends on one's stage of life & fading eyesight too!), the 'perfect' angle & setting of the grip will vary from person to person. You can tolerate a fair range quite easily, but when you pick up the saw that's just right for you, it's quite striking how well it 'fits'.

I fully agree with you Ian.
It is one of the reasons that I continue to reach for the Spear and Jacksons with the "unpopular" handle.

I have backsaws with prettier shaped handles and beautiful patina.
The Colver Brosler (top one in the picture below) has quite stunning looks, but it is a beast in the hand - perhaps the heaviest backsaw that I own.
This, and the hang angle make it quite unbalanced for me to use continuously.

IMG_20221014_173418.jpg

The Taylor Brothers (bottom saw) is much better, and maybe the prettiest handle of all my backsaws, but it hasn't the same balance as the S&J's
I have rescued a few of these (S&J's) over the years, and really like their simple lines - but above all they feel great in use.

IMG_20221014_171752.jpg

Cheers
Tom