Thread: Spokeshave advice

jpvd, true, there is a knack to the traditional shaves, and I guess you're right that most would soon acquire it if they were prepared to put in the effort. But there is also a difference in action between the types that needs to be understood. The traditional shave is essentially a bevel-up, low-angle plane, whereas the metal shaves have a bevel-down, roughly standard-pitch configuration. The former can be very unforgiving if used against the grain (which is how I came to grief back when I first used one trying to shape cabriole legs). The higher cutting angle of the metal shaves is a bit more forgiving as you go across grain-changes, especially if it has a tight mouth. Of course they can't cope against really sloped grain, but you can usually cut a bit further into the up-slope with the metal shave without severe tear-out. Of course I'm not a very practised trad-shave user, so it may be me more than the shave that's deficient, but low-angle, bevel up planes in general don't handle cranky grain.

I think for certain tasks like shaving chair parts where the grain is very regular & predictable or anywhere where you can always go 'with the grain', the trad shaves could be hard to beat in well-practised hands. However, I think the metal shaves are slightly more versatile and (in my hands) handle jobs like smoothing the edges of round-tables better (ok, a compass plane is even better, but that's a specialised tool that few folks really need). I think metal shaves are a bit easier for beginners to get reasonable results from quickly, & sharpening is definitely easier! However, most of the differences are pretty minor - if you start with trad shaves with a healthy attitude you should be able to get them working for you in not much more time than it takes to get a metal shave sorted.

As it happens, I have toyed with the idea of building a couple of full-size shaves since I made the mini. I have a whole lot of offcuts of blade steel left from making plane blades (something I started seriously about 18 months back & got a bit carries away with!). Several bits are too narrow for much other thanr making spokesahe blades. Some of my better products have started as a way to use up scraps, like my "English thumb plane":
2 blade shortened.jpg

It came about purely as a way to use some short offcuts of brass & sole material; I had no idea it would turn out to be such a sweet user, but that little plane has become one of my favourite tools.

Who knows - I could easily become a complete convert in the years to come....

Cheers,

That's very true Ian - I wouldn't want anyone to think I was some sort of swivel eyed fanatic extolling their virtues against all else... Your point about a bevel up plane is spot on. All I'd say is that the 'use case' tends to be in situations where grain direction is (by and large) reasonably obvious (eg on a curved leg) - it quickly becomes second nature to work with the grain - I shave into a curve from both directions as required, and accept that I may use the devil's handkerchief (aka sandpaper) for that last finish at the 'junction point'. It's no different to a plane - you quickly learn to read the tool's reaction to the wood, and adjust accordingly. Here are 3 pics showing the versatility:

Working plywood on a boat stem - note the shavings with a sharp blade. The second pic clearly shows the micro-structure of the wood, sliced cleanly, rather than 'mushed', and that's across end and face grain...

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And, because I was feeling lazy, using it to trim inlay down to fit on a table top. Set quite crude here to rip into the stock quickly. The handles gave me control to make sure there was no risk of nicking the table top in a way a plane would not have...

20210111_113330.jpg

Of course you could do any of this with a nice modern one, and if it cost me the same, I'd grab one - but for the price of a blade and an afternoon's fettling and some wax/oil, I'm happy - just like your planes, there's a pleasure in putting your own tool to the work that transcends all else...

You make a convincing case, jp....

As you say, either the metal or trad shave will do most jobs pretty much the same, and in the right hands,I suspect neither would be superior to the other. But the most convincing argument of all is the one you make on the pleasure of using a tool you've made yourself - you are preaching to the thoroughly converted there!

One of the main arguments I put forward for making tools is the better understanding of its function that inevitably brings, but there are a few caveats. Your first try or two may result in a less than satisfactory product, which can be disheartening, and if you are already short on shed time, you may well lose interest in the whole idea. I can understand why Mike would prefer to buy shaves that he knows will work 'out of the box', it's the safe route when you want to get things made now. My first two (wooden) planes were not quite total disasters, they did work, though not anywhere near as well as I expected. I was particularly time-poor at the time and had a very ambitious list of projects so I just got on with making things with the couple of planes I had & learnt to work around problems as best I could.

So might I suggest you do a WIP on your next shave? I know you don't think of yourself as an expert, but that's all the better, you are still early enough in the business to remember any early mistakes & talk about any steps that you found tricky. Sources for blades & woods to choose would be useful info for for first-timers, too. It was in that spirit that I started writing my "manual" for infills, though it ended up becoming a bit more than I'd intended...

Cheers,
Ian

I am firmly in JP's camp but there are some things to look out for. I just finished fixing up another one and it was a good reminder about the importance of a sharp blade. I spent a bit of time on removing the rust (which locked the tangs into the handle) straightening the curve in the blade edge, flattening the back of the blade (and removing pitting) making the bevel consistent and then finish sharpening on the stones. The timber does not appear to be beech but has such a lovely shape. Part of my reason for purchase was to use as a template for making more of my own (the other part was that it cost $9.50 plus postage).

So might I suggest you do a WIP on your next shave?

I will do that Ian - it'll force me to plan it properly, if nothing else! Funnily enough, 4 blades have just arrived in the post, so I have no excuses... My intent is to end up with 2 large and 2 small, each pair having one flat-bottomed and one curved. The brass stock is also somewhere in the shed, so not many excuses left...

Originally Posted by IanW

'Sfunny, some folks get on super-well with the old traditional shaves, some don't. For someone who has a cupboard full of self-made planes, I only have a single traditional style shave I've made, & it's a miniature:

spokeshave - Ian.jpg ...

How did an oversight like that happen, Ian? One expects that amends will be made over the next year or so.....

Seriously, if you do decide to look at this tool, then we look forward to seeing what your analytics and craft produce. A spokeshave looks like a very simple tool - arguably, only a draw knife is simpler - but it is really quite sophisticated.

Hi all,

On my post A few more planes to upgrade,
I mentioned I had got a spokeshave with the Planes.
It had been repaired by someone at some time.
Maybe at that time the person was in hard times or
the spokeshave was sentimental to him so he did a
repair on it. The screw which was used is really badly
churned and the repairer also used a pin which goes
right through the break to the other side. It is still quite
strong fix. Martin.IMG_20230409_193018.jpgIMG_20230409_193050.jpg

Hi,

Does any one know what the initials are
on the spokeshave ?

Martin.IMG_20230410_085207.jpg

Originally Posted by GraemeCook

How did an oversight like that happen, Ian? One expects that amends will be made over the next year or so.....

Not really an oversight, Graeme. I've had a workable wooden-bodied shave for as very long time, but hardly ever use it. I tend to do work requiring shaves at intervals which have become more sporadic & further apart these last few years. The Veritas shaves are sitting handily in my tool cupboard, just two steps from my bench, so when the need for one arises, one is in my hands without thinking about it at all. They are such good little gadgets that I really can't think of any defensible reasons to wish for anything else.

I have thought about making something for myself a few times, when my round shave couldn't manage the tight curve I was trying to clean up. There's even a tentative drawing for one in my sketch book, using 3/4" brass bar for the body, but it never got any further than the sketch. So in view of that, & because I seem to be making a lot of small tools of late, a small round shave might see the light of day in the next year or so, but please don't hold your breath. I'm very easily distracted & something entirely different might pop up & take my fancy instead....

Cheers,

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A big "thank you" to those that shared their experiences and offered advice. I'm now the owner of the Veritas Flat (front) and Round (a special thank you to Mr Brush). I've had a bit of a play.....


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...and made a tapered dowel from a squarish piece of scrap TasOak. I did this just by eye without any layout lines. The resulting dowel wasn't perfectly round and had many flat faces. I assume that's pretty much the expected result and final smoothing would be done with a few swipes with the Devils' tissue (sandpaper) to get rid of the facets. I primarily used the Flat spokeshave with the pulling action and I found this to be fairly straightforward and intuitive with the flat sole lying flat on the material as you would a handplane.


20230412_150548.jpg


I did experience some tearout on one side where I had to resort to pushing the spokeshave. This didn't feel as natural to me but other than speed, there was no difference to the end result. I'm sure with practise pushing the spokeshave won't feel so unnatural.

I also had a few swipes with the Round Spokeshave on the flat stock and this proved to be slightly trickier and I can see why there are so many critics of the round handles. It's not so much of a factor with the Flat spokeshave, but finding the correct angle of engagement with the Round is a tad harder which I'm sure will be made easier with the custom handles (thanks again IanW). I know that the real test will come when I get to shaping a piece with an inner curve and the "reversing" grain inherent with such pieces.

One more question: does anyone know how tight an inner curve the Veritas Round is capable of? I'm not after an exact radius, a ballpark figure will do. For example, will it do a 3" radius? If it can't, then I'll start searching for one with a more rounded bottom.



Cheers,
Mike

Mike, I have never measured exactly what radius either my 151 or Veritas RB shaves will manage. , I know the Veritas will follow a slightly tighter curve than the 151 but just how tight in mm I could not say. I would think 75mm radius should be fine but maybe I should make a few curves when I go down the shed & test it...

My advice would be to not get too wedded to either pulling or pushing with the flat bottomed shave - there are always situations where it's convenient to change the direction of cut & if you are comfortable with either way it makes life easier to just switch direction of the tool. For years I always used a flat-bottomed shave by pulling, but one day I came across some guru who pronounced pulling wrong - it must be pushed, he intoned. So I tried pushing, which at first seemed counter-intuitive & clumsy, but pretty soon I came to actually prefer pushing where it is appropriate. Your test with the dowel is one situation where pulling is more appropriate but as you use it in other roles you may find pushing often gives better control.

This is especially true of the RB shave, I find it far easier to keep it following the curve smoothly when pushed, but the real art in RBs, as Graeme or someone already mentioned, is developing the 'feel' to keep the blade fully engaged as you roll it through the curve. And yep, I think as I already said, that having handles that give you feedback on the orientation of the tool will speed up the learningy.

Keep your blades sharp, use a cut depth appropriate to the job & spokeshaving can be quite the Zen experience. And how much you tolerate small facets on your dowels depends on you & what they are used for. The antique buffs look for these on old chair spindles as proof they were "hand made"....
Cheers,
Ian

Delightful post, Ian.

Originally Posted by IanW

... Keep your blades sharp, use a cut depth appropriate to the job & spokeshaving can be quite the Zen experience. And how much you tolerate small facets on your dowels depends on you & what they are used for. The antique buffs look for these on old chair spindles as proof they were "hand made"....
Cheers,
Ian

That Zen experience, the feel of a sharp rounded spokeshave working well, can be elusive .... then suddenly it is there. The difference is only a few microns in twist on the shave, not millimetres. Subtle. You feel it. I maintain that you can also hear the difference - others say I am crazy!

Our Japanese friends have a very high end cohort of furniture call sashimono which is made without any fastenings - no screws, nails, bolts or glue. They also frown on the use of sandpaper as it roughens and dulls the timber surface.

Thanks gents. I get the feeling that I'll be finding excuses to using my spokeshaves in the future and probably incorporating more free-form curves in my designs. I don't know what it is about them, but there is that "Zen" feeling when you get it right. I even felt a bit of it in my short session, and by no means am I even close to becoming proficient. All I know is they're fun to use. Cheers.

Mike - glad the spokeshave got there in one piece. Time to try some different shaped handles? As you can see, I never even got as far as removing the "make your own handle" kit from the packet ! I think IanW was on the right track with his homemade ones.

Cheers