Thread: Spokeshave advice

Hi Mike

I have the flat-bottomed Stanley 151 as my user spokeshave and a flat-bottomed old ornate Preston which was an impulse buy and works just fine.

The 151 was part of a group of old rusty tools I paid $30 for at Blacktown Markets. Some Evaporust, a polish and a sharpen of its iron makes it as good a spokeshave as when it original bought. The iron is not as fancy as a PMV-11 but it holds its edge and is quick and easy to resharpen. I don't think the steel grade in the iron is that critical in a spokeshave unlike a bench plane.

The only thing I would say about spokeshave technique is to practice and keep practicing until it becomes natural and you're taking off smooth shavings. Both the push and pull techniques, keeping to descending cuts on curves, will all fall into place with practice. Once you get it becomes an amazing tool to use for shaping, chamfering, and smoothing out curves. One of my favourite uses is making handles for mallets and marking knives because it allows you to shape natural curves that conform your hand.

Whichever way you go, the spokeshave is a great addition to the plane collection.

Round soled spokeshaves can be awkward to learn on; I have the Stanley 151R and a smaller Record 063; the Record is much easier to use even though the blade is hammer adjusted. I think in these tools the wider the mouth the harder they are to control. Despite never using one I would definitely go for the Veritas model if funds permit if only so that if you can't get to grips with it then you can onsell it easily.

If you do go for the Veritas then buy it directly from Lee Valley in the US; it'll be cheaper; especially if you add a few more items to spread the shipping cost; and group buys are always good!

Originally Posted by AnthonySeiver

Hi Mike

I have the flat-bottomed Stanley 151 as my user spokeshave and a flat-bottomed old ornate Preston which was an impulse buy and works just fine.

The 151 was part of a group of old rusty tools I paid $30 for at Blacktown Markets. Some Evaporust, a polish and a sharpen of its iron makes it as good a spokeshave as when it original bought. The iron is not as fancy as a PMV-11 but it holds its edge and is quick and easy to resharpen. I don't think the steel grade in the iron is that critical in a spokeshave unlike a bench plane.

The only thing I would say about spokeshave technique is to practice and keep practicing until it becomes natural and you're taking off smooth shavings. Both the push and pull techniques, keeping to descending cuts on curves, will all fall into place with practice. Once you get it becomes an amazing tool to use for shaping, chamfering, and smoothing out curves. One of my favourite uses is making handles for mallets and marking knives because it allows you to shape natural curves that conform your hand.

Whichever way you go, the spokeshave is a great addition to the plane collection.

Thanks Anthony. It's good to hear the vintage items are perfectly serviceable tools. And you make a valid point about the steel grade not being so critical for spokeshaves. It's not like I'll be using them to flatten a table top ar anything like that. You have me leaning towards the ornate Prestons. If only they weren't so damn expensive. To be fair, it's more the international shipping that puts them a lot closer to the price range of the modern Veritas models. It's a shame they're not too common in our neck of the woods.

Originally Posted by Chief Tiff

Round soled spokeshaves can be awkward to learn on; I have the Stanley 151R and a smaller Record 063; the Record is much easier to use even though the blade is hammer adjusted. I think in these tools the wider the mouth the harder they are to control. Despite never using one I would definitely go for the Veritas model if funds permit if only so that if you can't get to grips with it then you can onsell it easily.

If you do go for the Veritas then buy it directly from Lee Valley in the US; it'll be cheaper; especially if you add a few more items to spread the shipping cost; and group buys are always good!

Thanks Ian. I've seen the spokeshaves with adjustable mouths, but had ruled them out as being more of a gimmick, but it looks like I was too hasty in my assessment. I'll put them back in for consideration.

As for getting the Veritas directly from Lee Valley, unfortunately they're currently out of stock and not due for another 3 months.

I don't know if Stanley shaves show up much there in Oz, so I'll focus on the Record shaves first. And I am assuming you need a round-soled shave because you're shaping some tight inside corners on the work.

The thing about the shaves with the adjusting nuts (151 and the like) is that, if you're going around a tight corner, the nuts can run into the stock. It's like having a car with excessive rear overhang and going from the street up a steep driveway - the bumper will scrape on the pavement. The #51 (swan handles) or #52 (straight handles) shaves, which are adjusted by delicate finger manipulations (more on this in a bit), will let you get through a tighter corner. The #63 shave, a smaller tool, is also good, if you're not removing big shavings.

The Stanley shaves have parallel numbering systems, although round-bottomed #51 and #52 shaves from Stanley are rare as hen's teeth in the U.S., and likely even more rare in Oz. On the other hand, Stanley also made the #63X, similar to the #63 shave, that's worth looking at if you can find it (also not a common tool: I've only ever found one in my searches, entirely by accident); my example of that shave has the tightest mouth of any shave I've found in the wild (interestingly, this is billed as a spokeshave for manual training classes, but my example is a high-grade tool).

There's also the Millers-Falls #1 "cigar" shave, but sharpening this is a sophisticated maneuver.

I don't know how easy it is to get Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen tools there, but, if they can be found and are within your budget, both offer some manually adjusted round sole shaves.

Adjusting a shave without adjusting nuts can be done several ways: hold it so you can sight over the mouth and fiddle with the blade/cutting iron until you just barely see it poking through, then tighten the lever cap. Or, better, put the shave down on a flat, clean surface (benchtop, for instance, after sweeping off the sawdust), with a piece of printer paper under the front edge of the mouth, and gently guide the cutting iron so it hits the bench, then tighten the lever cap. Regardless, try it out on a piece of scrap, then try again if it's not right. Adjustment is trickier with a round-soled shave than with a flat-soled shave, but, with practice, it will come right.

Gripping: lightly pinch the body of the shave at its edges between thumb and index finger and use the handles mainly to have somewhere to put your other fingers. You'll have a more sensitive sense of where the shave is and its relation to the cut this way. I personally prefer a flat-handled shave (#52, #63) because it's more comfortable to grip this way.

Pull, don't push: for people raised on Western planes, it seems natural to grip the tool and use it pushing away. But, especially for tight corners, it's far better to turn it around and bring the shave toward you. Orient the work, if possible, so that, as you start around the corner, your wrists are straight. As you go around, you'll move your hands down, your wrists following and turning down. This is superior body mechanics to having your wrists turn upward, and you've got more range of motion in that direction.

Spokeshaves are truly fun (as are drawknives, a similar but larger-scale tool). If I had more time in my life, during breaks from projects, I'd just get some scrap and play with them. But I don't seem to find time for all the projects themselves, much less taking breaks from them.

Originally Posted by Bill Houghton

I don't know if Stanley shaves show up much there in Oz, so I'll focus on the Record shaves first. And I am assuming you need a round-soled shave because you're shaping some tight inside corners on the work.

The thing about the shaves with the adjusting nuts (151 and the like) is that, if you're going around a tight corner, the nuts can run into the stock. It's like having a car with excessive rear overhang and going from the street up a steep driveway - the bumper will scrape on the pavement. The #51 (swan handles) or #52 (straight handles) shaves, which are adjusted by delicate finger manipulations (more on this in a bit), will let you get through a tighter corner. The #63 shave, a smaller tool, is also good, if you're not removing big shavings.

The Stanley shaves have parallel numbering systems, although round-bottomed #51 and #52 shaves from Stanley are rare as hen's teeth in the U.S., and likely even more rare in Oz. On the other hand, Stanley also made the #63X, similar to the #63 shave, that's worth looking at if you can find it (also not a common tool: I've only ever found one in my searches, entirely by accident); my example of that shave has the tightest mouth of any shave I've found in the wild (interestingly, this is billed as a spokeshave for manual training classes, but my example is a high-grade tool).

There's also the Millers-Falls #1 "cigar" shave, but sharpening this is a sophisticated maneuver.

I don't know how easy it is to get Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen tools there, but, if they can be found and are within your budget, both offer some manually adjusted round sole shaves.

Adjusting a shave without adjusting nuts can be done several ways: hold it so you can sight over the mouth and fiddle with the blade/cutting iron until you just barely see it poking through, then tighten the lever cap. Or, better, put the shave down on a flat, clean surface (benchtop, for instance, after sweeping off the sawdust), with a piece of printer paper under the front edge of the mouth, and gently guide the cutting iron so it hits the bench, then tighten the lever cap. Regardless, try it out on a piece of scrap, then try again if it's not right. Adjustment is trickier with a round-soled shave than with a flat-soled shave, but, with practice, it will come right.

Gripping: lightly pinch the body of the shave at its edges between thumb and index finger and use the handles mainly to have somewhere to put your other fingers. You'll have a more sensitive sense of where the shave is and its relation to the cut this way. I personally prefer a flat-handled shave (#52, #63) because it's more comfortable to grip this way.

Pull, don't push: for people raised on Western planes, it seems natural to grip the tool and use it pushing away. But, especially for tight corners, it's far better to turn it around and bring the shave toward you. Orient the work, if possible, so that, as you start around the corner, your wrists are straight. As you go around, you'll move your hands down, your wrists following and turning down. This is superior body mechanics to having your wrists turn upward, and you've got more range of motion in that direction.

Spokeshaves are truly fun (as are drawknives, a similar but larger-scale tool). If I had more time in my life, during breaks from projects, I'd just get some scrap and play with them. But I don't seem to find time for all the projects themselves, much less taking breaks from them.

Thanks for your response and for sharing your knowledge and experience on the subject, Bill. Yes, I have a couple of upcoming projects where I will need to shape tight inside corners.




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It was actually during my workbench build when I was shaping the legs of my sliding deadman and the compound angles of my drawer pulls with a combination of rasps and sandpaper that I realised I needed a spokeshave in my arsenal. You make a very valid point when you mentioned how the adjustment screws can limit the tightness of the curve. I'm no longer putting as high a weighting on adjustment screws as I decide on which models to choose.





Thanks again,
Mike

Hi Mike. I have a real soft spot for wooden spokeshaves. These can be bought for very reasonable prices on Ebay but things can be a bit hit and miss (this must be why I need to keep getting more of them, searching for the right one)! Sharpening their tanged blades is a bit of a challenge. The one I use most is actually one I made myself, to replace a burnt body. The ones with brass strips are, for some odd reason, harder to adjust. As to Stanley (or equivalent) spokeshaves, I find the #67 the most enjoyable and predictable to use. They originally came with a few accessories but my first one had only the curved base (which was what I wanted). Another came up for sale with a flat base (but one splitting ferrule) but was cheaper than buying just a flat base from another supplier. Now I have 2 and love them. But they seem to have jumped up in price lately.

I use Stanley 151 and 152 spokeshaves. $25 ea second hand usually .
I wouldn't get anything more fancy because they work fine . And I mod them a touch, so If I bought a new more expensive tool I wouldn't want to do that.

First. The leading edge of the sole specially on the flat 151 needs a fine ramp linished in to stop the dig in and flip that occurs sometimes. It can be a painful thing! The soles are also linished and buff polished.

All My spokeshave blades get a camber/ curve to the cutter. That makes shaving wood much easier and leaves no blade corner lines down the work. Waxing the sole and traversing the cut is the way to stop shudder. The cabinet scraper sorts the surface out flatter if its needed.

I would not bother with a harder to sharpen PM - V11 blade on a spoke shave unless your into the hard work required by using our rock hard aussie hard woods. Fair enough though if your into that.


Rob

Hi Mike,

don't forget the Aussie made Falcon spoke shaves.

They are a copy of the Stanley and just as good.

Graham.

Originally Posted by macg

Hi Mike,

don't forget the Aussie made Falcon spoke shaves.

They are a copy of the Stanley and just as good.

Graham.

Well said Graham .

Bill has given you a pretty goodrun-down, but I'll add a few thoughts from my own experience.

I had a 150 & 151 for many years & eventually got on fine with both, but found the round-bottomed version tricky at first, as has been mentioned. In fact I was having real trouble with mine, until one day when my then 6 yr old son wanted to make a sword or something & I was using the flat-bottomed shave & didn't want him wrecking the set (or the blade!), so he picked up the R-. To my utter amazement the little beggar proceeded to make good shavings with it! After he'd gone, I grabbed it & persevered until eventually it clicked & I learnt to us it with the necessary rolling motion to keep the blade smoothly engaged in a curve.

On the pushing or pulling point, I differ from Bill a bit, I use both according to the job in hand. I find the R-B is usually easier & more intuitive to use pushing, using my thumbs to control the 'roll'. Those two little flats either side of the blade on the Stanleys seem like they were made for your thumbs. I use the flat-bottom either way, depending on the job, sometimes pulling works best, sometimes pushing, but it's an individual preference.

I haven't experienced the problem of the adjusters 'bottoming out', I found the curve of the sole to be more of a limiting factor on the radius of the curve I can follow, but it's a valid heads-up that would be important in some situations.

A few years ago, when I was on a full salary & no longer had kids at home, I indulged in a pair of Veritas shaves. At first I found the round handles really awkward, being so used to the dished & curved handles of the Stableys. I made some new, shaped handles for them:

5.jpg

Which I reckon made them easier to use, though by the time I'd gotten round to it, I was beginning to become accustomed to the round things, so it was probably a waste of time, but customising my tools is a habit of mine anyway.

The Vertias shaves are a little better than the Stanleys in two respects, the tighter mouths improve performance a bit, and the R-B can follow a slightly tighter curve. However, about the time I got the Veritas shaves, I needed to replace the blade in the original old 150, so I bought a LV replacement. They are thicker than the original blade and close the mouth up to the point where the old Stanley is as good a performer as the Veritas. I probably should have have stuck with the Stanleys....

Chatter can be a big nuisance, especially on harder woods. It's a matter of learning how much blade exposure is required for the job in hand & how to keep the sole engaged with the wood. You can take big fat shavings when rounding a dowel, for example, but planing a wider shape like your bench attachment needs a finer set. It's also a matter of getting used to keeping the sole firmly on the work & needles to say, a sharp blade is paramount.

And finally, there is a useful advantage of the two-screw adjuster system - they make it easy to set the blade slighly off-square so that it's cutting coarsely on one side & finely on the other. This can be very handy when rounding things that need a lot of wood removed & a finer finish. It works really well & takes surprisingly little time to get used-to.

My 2c turned into several dollars, as usual...
:U

Originally Posted by auscab

I use Stanley 151 and 152 spokeshaves. $25 ea second hand usually .
I wouldn't get anything more fancy because they work fine . And I mod them a touch, so If I bought a new more expensive tool I wouldn't want to do that.

First. The leading edge of the sole specially on the flat 151 needs a fine ramp linished in to stop the dig in and flip that occurs sometimes. It can be a painful thing! The soles are also linished and buff polished.

All My spokeshave blades get a camber/ curve to the cutter. That makes shaving wood much easier and leaves no blade corner lines down the work. Waxing the sole and traversing the cut is the way to stop shudder. The cabinet scraper sorts the surface out flatter if its needed.

I would not bother with a harder to sharpen PM - V11 blade on a spoke shave unless your into the hard work required by using our rock hard aussie hard woods. Fair enough though if your into that.


Rob

Thanks for sharing your tips and experience, Rob, but I think vintage 151s and 152s have gone up in price from what I can see. The cheapest vintage example (which is what I would choose as opposed to the new versions made in China or India) on eBay is currently closer to the $50 mark including shipping with 3 days to go on the bidding.

I very much value your advice, so please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way, but our philosophies when it comes to tools are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is clear that as a professional you place a higher importance on a tools ability to do the job it is designed for and how efficient it performs that particular task. As a hobbyist, my priorities are entirely different. I look at it purely from the viewpoint of whether the tool gives me the user experience that I'm looking for and that experience is joy or pleasure. Or to put it simply, do I have fun using the tool or does it give me pleasure just through ownership or from a collectability perspective. Don't get me wrong, how well a tool does its jobs is a huge factor in determining if a tool is fun to use, but things like aesthetics, clever design, interesting features, etc can make me overlook any deficiencies in its function. I'll often refer to my tools as my toys because of this. Sometimes the pleasure is derived from the restoration of an old tool. I experience such enjoyment when I successfully fettled an old Stanley #29 transition plane last year, and similarly when I brought an old badger plane back to life.

As a complete novice, my approach to a tool purchase usually has me purchasing one of the premium modern examples. i.e. Veritas, Lie Nielsen, etc. The reason for this is not because I'm a tool-snob, but as someone with very little experience, it can be very frustrating when things don't go right, which is quite often when you are doing things for the very first time, e.g. using a spokeshave. And by using a tool from one of the premium brands, I can at least know that my problems is generally due to my technique and nothing to do with the tool that I happen to be using. I need all the help I can get!!

I am totally aware that my approach is totally backwards to the majority. Most would either buy vintage tools or one of the more affordable brands and then upgrade as their skills improve. The reason I don't do this is because: 1) I'd rather buy once (it's more economical in the long run); and 2) it's easier to re-sell if I find I don't like the tool, and often at the same purchase price (or even for a profit).

Thanks again for the tips. Whichever model I end up getting, I'll know to add a fine ramp to the leading edge if I find it digging in, and I'll camber the blade to minimise blade tracks. And unfortunately, I often use our extremely hard Aussie hardwoods (Spotty Gum, Blackbutt, Ironbark, Tallowwood, etc) and I find PMV11 blades hold up much better, although as pointed out earlier, it's perhaps not as crucial in a spokeshave.




Cheers,
Mike

Originally Posted by IanW

Bill has given you a pretty goodrun-down, but I'll add a few thoughts from my own experience.

I had a 150 & 151 for many years & eventually got on fine with both, but found the round-bottomed version tricky at first, as has been mentioned. In fact I was having real trouble with mine, until one day when my then 6 yr old son wanted to make a sword or something & I was using the flat-bottomed shave & didn't want him wrecking the set (or the blade!), so he picked up the R-. To my utter amazement the little beggar proceeded to make good shavings with it! After he'd gone, I grabbed it & persevered until eventually it clicked & I learnt to us it with the necessary rolling motion to keep the blade smoothly engaged in a curve.

On the pushing or pulling point, I differ from Bill a bit, I use both according to the job in hand. I find the R-B is usually easier & more intuitive to use pushing, using my thumbs to control the 'roll'. Those two little flats either side of the blade on the Stanleys seem like they were made for your thumbs. I use the flat-bottom either way, depending on the job, sometimes pulling works best, sometimes pushing, but it's an individual preference.

I haven't experienced the problem of the adjusters 'bottoming out', I found the curve of the sole to be more of a limiting factor on the radius of the curve I can follow, but it's a valid heads-up that would be important in some situations.

A few years ago, when I was on a full salary & no longer had kids at home, I indulged in a pair of Veritas shaves. At first I found the round handles really awkward, being so used to the dished & curved handles of the Stableys. I made some new, shaped handles for them:

5.jpg

Which I reckon made them easier to use, though by the time I'd gotten round to it, I was beginning to become accustomed to the round things, so it was probably a waste of time, but customising my tools is a habit of mine anyway.

The Vertias shaves are a little better than the Stanleys in two respects, the tighter mouths improve performance a bit, and the R-B can follow a slightly tighter curve. However, about the time I got the Veritas shaves, I needed to replace the blade in the original old 150, so I bought a LV replacement. They are thicker than the original blade and close the mouth up to the point where the old Stanley is as good a performer as the Veritas. I probably should have have stuck with the Stanleys....

Chatter can be a big nuisance, especially on harder woods. It's a matter of learning how much blade exposure is required for the job in hand & how to keep the sole engaged with the wood. You can take big fat shavings when rounding a dowel, for example, but planing a wider shape like your bench attachment needs a finer set. It's also a matter of getting used to keeping the sole firmly on the work & needles to say, a sharp blade is paramount.

And finally, there is a useful advantage of the two-screw adjuster system - they make it easy to set the blade slighly off-square so that it's cutting coarsely on one side & finely on the other. This can be very handy when rounding things that need a lot of wood removed & a finer finish. It works really well & takes surprisingly little time to get used-to.

My 2c turned into several dollars, as usual...

Thanks for your post, Ian. So far you're the only one who has compared the Veritas with the vintage Stanleys and your feedback is always insightful and much appreciated by me and probably everyone else. You're even able to give me an insight to what's it like to upgrade the blade on the vintage Stanleys with the PMV11 blades from LV, which is another path I was considering. At this stage, I'm leaning more towards getting the modern Veritas versions for the reasons I outlined in my reply to Rob.

And I love your custom handles btw. Is it She-Oak, Hairy Oak, or Buloke?



Thanks again,
Mike

If you want a curved sole Veritas spokeshave in a hurry at a good price (compared to new) I have a barely used one surplus to requirements. Looks almost like new, but has the original blade before they offered PM-V11 - I suspect this was likely A2? I can throw in the kit they offered to make your own handles (which i bought but never got around to doing).

I went over to an HNT Gordon spokeshave, so haven't used the Veritas in a long time !

PM me if interested, and I'll take some pics for you.