Thread: New Stanley Bedrock Planes

Originally Posted by matt1245

So here is my suggestion,

With the ease of global comunication these days, and through forums and groups such as this fine example, it would be easy to collect a vast amount (millions???) of signitures on some kind of e-petition, of people with similar views, to send to Stanley tools, to try and persaude them to produce a higher quality range of planes.

Matt, a list won't do it. They've been riding the success of the name for quite a while now. They've tapped into the lower end market of consumers who cannot justify the expense of the better brands. If people continue to buy them, they'll continue to make them because they're making enough business to sustain themselves. If you come up with a fool proof business case for them to make greater profits with a crop of great planes consistently, then... I'm sure they're not dumb enough to not have considered it. Stanley 2005 is not the same as Stanley pre WWII and not meant to be. Their current product "is" meant to be what it is because that is exactly their current plan - they have no intention of producing great quality planes at this stage. Wasn't the price of the Stanley SW planes commensurate with the current better and more expensive planes? If so, then why bother with new Stanley planes if you want better quality? A company is a company, it's not the product they sell. If they sell crap, then we have the choice not to buy it.

Regards,

Michael

Matt,

I like your idea.

Stanley however have had many opportunities in the past to redeem their past high quality name but have not grasped the opportunity either due to design or ignorance.

People like Thomas Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley and Clifton Planes have seen the market opportunities and are reaping the rewards. I doubt if Stanley could easily regain their share of the market.

Bearing in mind that the new high quality plane manufacturers aren't going to stand by and watch their market evaporate. They would take steps to counter any threat to them.

If Stanley brought out a "high quality" plane, I wouldn't be selling my LN's just in case the Stanley's were OK again. So I think it would take quite some time and a lot of effort for Stanley to get within a bull's roar of entering the high end market again.

Thanks for your points.

I wasn't thinking of Stanley improving all there planes (although it would be nice if they would), rather they bring out a second 'bedrock' range of high quality planes to run alongside (or above) there current crop.

If we could get thousands (if not more) signatures, show them that there is a demand, then it would be extremely foolish of them not even to look into the possibility of it.

Matt.

Hi Matt

I think that the question has been answered, namely that Bed Rock planes are being made by Lie Nielson and Clifton, with Lee Valley manufacturing an alternative (closer to Norris than Stanley) in the bench plane line, and that if Stanley wanted to make a Bed Rock line to the standards set by these manufacturers, then their price would have to be similar. But Stanley are out of the picture because they do not desire to be in it.

Note, the Bed Rock design, while excellent, is going to be overtaken by the bevel up design - mark my words. So I would rather be investing in that design. Here LV are now leading the way.

Regards from Perth

Derek

If Stanley did that, where would the fun be in collecting old planes be? Heh, imagine a shift to collecting the planes from the ***** years?!

Would anyone argue that Lie Nielsen et al have produced better planes than stanley ever did anyway? Im looking for Stanley users myself, but I dont think they would be worth spit next to my hard earned Lee Valley tools. Excepting, of course, those models that no one else seems to make...

I think that Stanley will continue to make planes and trade off of the name at the bargain end of the market. People in the know will but any one of a number of quality planes.

Stanley don't care as long as they go on selling the stuff they make at present and rather than waste your time on getting them to do it properly just buy a Lie Neilsen or whatever.

I suspect that Stanley was never all that good just a bit of a romantic hangover that many people think they are high quality.

Stevo

Back in their hay day were Stanley tools considered high end

Back in their hay day were Stanley tools considered high end

Not on your nellie!

For high end planes, for example, look at Norris, Spiers and a host of other classic infills.

Stanley were always middle-of-the-road tools - mass produced and value-for-money.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Not on your nellie!

For high end planes, for example, look at Norris, Spiers and a host of other classic infills.

Stanley were always middle-of-the-road tools - mass produced and value-for-money.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I had a feeling as such but try to tell a stanley collector he/she has a collection of cheap tools, especially after they pay over $1000 for a #1.

Now, there are a few no-name brands of number 4, 5, an odd 7 and some block planes appearing in the market. Most look like copies of Stanley.

This may get Stanley to respond with some brand differentiation similar to their “faxmax” range of tapes, knives etc if they think that this market segment is important to them.

It is a business…

Cheers,
Theva

True Stanleys arn't like they used to be.....but so what ? The only thing really wrong with them is the blades are too thin....there are ways around that...just buy a thicker one to fit or fashon an old blade to fit........you might have to flattern its sole....etc....but fettling a new plane is a process I would think we all do anyway......

Having never owned a 'modern' plane I don't fully understand what all the fuss is about....I, like many others, still get by quite well with the stanleys, new and old........
I think the performance in a tool will reach a point where it can't really be improved on ..... after which things of far more significance can only improve your work....like how well you USE the bloody thing......and that is something that can always be greatly improved on....and should be the focus......the tools are already out there in the truckloads at flea markets and the like......why does it become a must to buy something flash ? And when you do own something flash, worth hundreds of dollars, I'd be affraid to touch it for fear of damaging it.......

For hand planes, in my opinion, it doesn't get much better than a thick razor sharp blade held fixed in a plane with a flatterned sole and close mouth.........thats it........after that its just a hobby........not that there is anything wrong with that, Its my hobby too....,,just important to remember I think, when we stress how 'Good' this or that is........This means that your plane can be made in tiawon, india, whereever,,,,, as long as you fettle it to possess the these characteristics......and thats not hard to do.....

I mean I'm relatively new to the game and quite a clumsy bugger....... but still with a tuned up piece of crap I can
- shoot full length end grain,,,regularly do after any cutoff....yep, those nice long crisp ones that bevel up planes boast of....
- tackle most teary timbers.....back bevelling.....
etc.....

Show me something these new planes can do that old planes can't and you'll have me sold......but till then......what a load of expensive bull****.........

I had a feeling as such but try to tell a stanley collector he/she has a collection of cheap tools, especially after they pay over $1000 for a #1.

Collectors go for rarity, not necessarily for quality.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Collectors are busy for sure.

No 7 Stanley jointers are going for about $165 in ebay; it is much higher than relative US prices.

New one is A$220. Got sick of looking at it so went to the market today looking for a jointer but ended up picking a new 12-060 for $70 and a 275mm mujingfang smother for $22.

Cheers,
Theva

Show me something these new planes can do that old planes can't and you'll have me sold......but till then......what a load of expensive bull****.........

Apricotripper

I am curious to know what types of timbers you work with or have experience of? The reason I say this is because a Stanley plane, even a well tuned one, has a limited range in which it will work satisfactorally. This range is basically limited to softwoods and straight-grained timber. As soon as you move into the world of interlinked grains, especially hardwoods, the Stanley range is out of its depth.

Yes, you can add a backbevel to a thin Stanley blade to approximate a 60 degree bevel, and you can add a thicker aftermarket blade and matching chipbreaker. All these do improve performance, and sometimes this may be satisfactory for your purposes. But this will still not reach the heights of a specialist plane. Just for interest, I built the ultimate Stanley: based on a #4, I turned one into an infill plane that used an LN blade and Mathieson chipbreaker (it was in the years before aftermarket chipbreakers). See below.

I have also the epitomy of what might be considered a well-tuned Stanley bench plane: a Stanley Bed Rock #604 (same size as a #4) with LN blade and chipbreaker. This is a very good plane, one that will take very fine shavings in softwoods. But is has it limitations - I would not use it with hardwoods such as Jarrah, Karri and (a recent one I got from Squizzy) Bluegum, amongst others. These just tearout.

The problem with tearout is that it does not take much to put a lot extra work into redoing the surface.

Planemakers, such as HNT Gordon, have developed their plane range around these difficult timbers. High cutting angles are the norm, with 55 degrees considered a minimum, 60 degrees better, and some even higher than that (the latest LV bevel up smoother uses a 62 degeee cutting angle).

The difference the HA planes make is like Night verses Day. Nothing I say will convince you of this until you try it for yourself.

I am aware that you have similar "romantic" yearnings about the wordworking attitudes of yesteryear. The New Era Planes (by which I mean the bevel up designs of LV and LN) should not change this. The craft still lies in the hands of the worker, not in the tool. But some of these tools make it easier to work the timbers of our era, which probably were not worked this way in yesteryear.

This means that your plane can be made in tiawon, india, whereever,,,,, as long as you fettle it to possess the these characteristics......and thats not hard to do.....

I must disagree. I think that you are being naive. While it is true that you can fettle a Taiwanese or Indian-made plane into being flat (and taking a reasonable shaving), there is more to a performance plane than just a flat sole. A well-made plane is a synthesis of good machining - all parts must fit well, be flat, and be square. They must also move well together, for example, with as little backlash as possible. And even if you were capable of re-machining a cheaply made plane to be this way, the number of hours you need to spend doing it is just not cost-effective. You'd be better off buying an old Stanley (but you would be still limited by this design), or better still, making your own plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek