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Thread: New Stanley Bedrock Planes
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16th May 2005, 11:37 AM #1
New Stanley Bedrock Planes
Just been having a look though old posts about tuning and planes in general.
Seems like the majority of old planes out there being tuned are stanleys, and for a few reasons, by those who enjoy making an old tool good again, and by those who are unhappy with the quality of new stanley planes. Like most things these days, manufactures are under pressure to lower prices, which eventually lead to a drop in quality.
Stanley must be by far and away the most well known name in planes and, to me at least, it is a crying shame that there product isn't what it should be. I would love to see them competing at the top of the tree again.
So here is my suggestion,
With the ease of global comunication these days, and through forums and groups such as this fine example, it would be easy to collect a vast amount (millions???) of signitures on some kind of e-petition, of people with similar views, to send to Stanley tools, to try and persaude them to produce a higher quality range of planes. They could be Branded stanley bedrock as a sign of quality. (do stanley still own the bedrock name??? one for Derek).
What are peoples views on this?
Thanks for reading to my half drunken ramblings, and i hope i have managed to put my day dreams into some kind of sense.
Matt.Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
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16th May 2005 11:37 AM # ADSGoogle Adsense Advertisement
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16th May 2005, 02:20 PM #2Originally Posted by matt1245
Regards,
Michael
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16th May 2005, 03:21 PM #3
Matt,
I like your idea.
Stanley however have had many opportunities in the past to redeem their past high quality name but have not grasped the opportunity either due to design or ignorance.
People like Thomas Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley and Clifton Planes have seen the market opportunities and are reaping the rewards. I doubt if Stanley could easily regain their share of the market.
Bearing in mind that the new high quality plane manufacturers aren't going to stand by and watch their market evaporate. They would take steps to counter any threat to them.
If Stanley brought out a "high quality" plane, I wouldn't be selling my LN's just in case the Stanley's were OK again. So I think it would take quite some time and a lot of effort for Stanley to get within a bull's roar of entering the high end market again.- Wood Borer
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17th May 2005, 07:41 AM #4
Thanks for your points.
I wasn't thinking of Stanley improving all there planes (although it would be nice if they would), rather they bring out a second 'bedrock' range of high quality planes to run alongside (or above) there current crop.
If we could get thousands (if not more) signatures, show them that there is a demand, then it would be extremely foolish of them not even to look into the possibility of it.
Matt.Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
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17th May 2005, 12:34 PM #5
Hi Matt
I think that the question has been answered, namely that Bed Rock planes are being made by Lie Nielson and Clifton, with Lee Valley manufacturing an alternative (closer to Norris than Stanley) in the bench plane line, and that if Stanley wanted to make a Bed Rock line to the standards set by these manufacturers, then their price would have to be similar. But Stanley are out of the picture because they do not desire to be in it.
Note, the Bed Rock design, while excellent, is going to be overtaken by the bevel up design - mark my words. So I would rather be investing in that design. Here LV are now leading the way.
Regards from Perth
Derek
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17th May 2005, 08:59 PM #6Son Of Odin
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If Stanley did that, where would the fun be in collecting old planes be? Heh, imagine a shift to collecting the planes from the ***** years?!
Would anyone argue that Lie Nielsen et al have produced better planes than stanley ever did anyway? Im looking for Stanley users myself, but I dont think they would be worth spit next to my hard earned Lee Valley tools. Excepting, of course, those models that no one else seems to make...J!
My opinion is neither copyrighted nor trademarked, and its price is competitive. If you like, I'll trade for one of yours.
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24th June 2005, 06:40 PM #7
I think that Stanley will continue to make planes and trade off of the name at the bargain end of the market. People in the know will but any one of a number of quality planes.
Stanley don't care as long as they go on selling the stuff they make at present and rather than waste your time on getting them to do it properly just buy a Lie Neilsen or whatever.
I suspect that Stanley was never all that good just a bit of a romantic hangover that many people think they are high quality.
StevoAussie Hardwood Number One
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25th June 2005, 07:41 PM #8
Back in their hay day were Stanley tools considered high end
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25th June 2005, 07:57 PM #9Back in their hay day were Stanley tools considered high end
For high end planes, for example, look at Norris, Spiers and a host of other classic infills.
Stanley were always middle-of-the-road tools - mass produced and value-for-money.
Regards from Perth
Derek
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25th June 2005, 08:13 PM #10Originally Posted by derekcohen
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25th June 2005, 08:49 PM #11Senior Member
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Now, there are a few no-name brands of number 4, 5, an odd 7 and some block planes appearing in the market. Most look like copies of Stanley.
This may get Stanley to respond with some brand differentiation similar to their “faxmax” range of tapes, knives etc if they think that this market segment is important to them.
It is a business…
Cheers,
Theva
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25th June 2005, 09:15 PM #12
True Stanleys arn't like they used to be.....but so what ? The only thing really wrong with them is the blades are too thin....there are ways around that...just buy a thicker one to fit or fashon an old blade to fit........you might have to flattern its sole....etc....but fettling a new plane is a process I would think we all do anyway......
Having never owned a 'modern' plane I don't fully understand what all the fuss is about....I, like many others, still get by quite well with the stanleys, new and old........
I think the performance in a tool will reach a point where it can't really be improved on ..... after which things of far more significance can only improve your work....like how well you USE the bloody thing......and that is something that can always be greatly improved on....and should be the focus......the tools are already out there in the truckloads at flea markets and the like......why does it become a must to buy something flash ? And when you do own something flash, worth hundreds of dollars, I'd be affraid to touch it for fear of damaging it.......
For hand planes, in my opinion, it doesn't get much better than a thick razor sharp blade held fixed in a plane with a flatterned sole and close mouth.........thats it........after that its just a hobby........not that there is anything wrong with that, Its my hobby too....,,just important to remember I think, when we stress how 'Good' this or that is........This means that your plane can be made in tiawon, india, whereever,,,,, as long as you fettle it to possess the these characteristics......and thats not hard to do.....
I mean I'm relatively new to the game and quite a clumsy bugger....... but still with a tuned up piece of crap I can
- shoot full length end grain,,,regularly do after any cutoff....yep, those nice long crisp ones that bevel up planes boast of....
- tackle most teary timbers.....back bevelling.....
etc.....
Show me something these new planes can do that old planes can't and you'll have me sold......but till then......what a load of expensive bull****.........
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25th June 2005, 11:20 PM #13I had a feeling as such but try to tell a stanley collector he/she has a collection of cheap tools, especially after they pay over $1000 for a #1.
Regards from Perth
Derek
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25th June 2005, 11:48 PM #14Senior Member
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Collectors are busy for sure.
No 7 Stanley jointers are going for about $165 in ebay; it is much higher than relative US prices.
New one is A$220. Got sick of looking at it so went to the market today looking for a jointer but ended up picking a new 12-060 for $70 and a 275mm mujingfang smother for $22.
Cheers,
Theva
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26th June 2005, 12:09 AM #15Show me something these new planes can do that old planes can't and you'll have me sold......but till then......what a load of expensive bull****.........
I am curious to know what types of timbers you work with or have experience of? The reason I say this is because a Stanley plane, even a well tuned one, has a limited range in which it will work satisfactorally. This range is basically limited to softwoods and straight-grained timber. As soon as you move into the world of interlinked grains, especially hardwoods, the Stanley range is out of its depth.
Yes, you can add a backbevel to a thin Stanley blade to approximate a 60 degree bevel, and you can add a thicker aftermarket blade and matching chipbreaker. All these do improve performance, and sometimes this may be satisfactory for your purposes. But this will still not reach the heights of a specialist plane. Just for interest, I built the ultimate Stanley: based on a #4, I turned one into an infill plane that used an LN blade and Mathieson chipbreaker (it was in the years before aftermarket chipbreakers). See below.
I have also the epitomy of what might be considered a well-tuned Stanley bench plane: a Stanley Bed Rock #604 (same size as a #4) with LN blade and chipbreaker. This is a very good plane, one that will take very fine shavings in softwoods. But is has it limitations - I would not use it with hardwoods such as Jarrah, Karri and (a recent one I got from Squizzy) Bluegum, amongst others. These just tearout.
The problem with tearout is that it does not take much to put a lot extra work into redoing the surface.
Planemakers, such as HNT Gordon, have developed their plane range around these difficult timbers. High cutting angles are the norm, with 55 degrees considered a minimum, 60 degrees better, and some even higher than that (the latest LV bevel up smoother uses a 62 degeee cutting angle).
The difference the HA planes make is like Night verses Day. Nothing I say will convince you of this until you try it for yourself.
I am aware that you have similar "romantic" yearnings about the wordworking attitudes of yesteryear. The New Era Planes (by which I mean the bevel up designs of LV and LN) should not change this. The craft still lies in the hands of the worker, not in the tool. But some of these tools make it easier to work the timbers of our era, which probably were not worked this way in yesteryear.
This means that your plane can be made in tiawon, india, whereever,,,,, as long as you fettle it to possess the these characteristics......and thats not hard to do.....
Regards from Perth
Derek