Thread: Stanley Bench Planes Replacement Blade Bulk Order

Hi TS,

NO bevel for my plane blades please.

I would vote for the devil we know, Rippon. I think Rippon have been quite helpful in all your dealings.

Cheers
Pops

I'm happy to try the cheap guy, with no bevel, I have ordered quite a bit and $5 is a good saving.
You probably didn't know the other guy when you first used him either, the cheap guy may be better.

Hi TS,

Please put me down for a bevel (ie Stage 2) on all 4 of my blades.

But, please change me from 2 Cap Irons to 1 only.

I vote for Rippon too.

Thanks Helmut,

Chris

TS

I think this order is far too big to simply take the cheapest and risk it. I'd hate to be you if Alcon delivers a bodgy job or one where they thought you wanted something other than what you got... At a minimum, I'd be getting samples from Alcon of what you expect before preceeding with them. When people do things on the cheap here, they REALLY do things on the cheap. There are so many companies here that will under cut just to get a job. Then do a real shyte job just to get it out of the shop fast. At least Rippon knows what you want and did a good job in the past. And for a measly 5 bucks more - Rippons the way to go.

5 bucks times whatever this order is now is a shyte load. For me it's $20.

Maybe it would help if you detailed what they're going to do, that might help people decide.

As I understand it, they're going to flatten the blade and grind the bevel (which many of us don't want anyway). The laser cutting and heat treating are far more critical in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Harry R

If the cheaper mob can demonstrate experience in grinding tool blades without affecting the integrity/quality of the blade, fine. If they have no demonstrated experience then I would prefer to pay the extra and get a quality blade.

I can cite many examples where I ended up regretting buying a cheaper product for the sake of saving a few dollars. I can't think of one example where I paid extra for a quality product.

See also my earlier comments in this regard.
Cheers

I can cite many examples where I ended up regretting buying a cheaper product for the sake of saving a few dollars.

We're not talking about buying a cheaper product. We're talking about paying $5 per item more to have the same job done. It's a light surface grind for pete's sake. If the blades come back and they're not flat, you withhold payment, send them back and tell them to try again. I fail to see how a company that specialises in this type of work could stuff up a simple surface grind. It's not exactly precision work. They'll probably get the apprentice to do it. It's much more important that the hardening and tempering is right and the keyhole slots are in the right place. You guys want to add a $5 premium to each blade for something that is not even that critical. Maybe Rippon are adding a $5 "annoying job" tax. Plenty of them do it.

I agree that taking the cheapest quote is not necessarily always the best strategy but you have to use a bit of common sense about it too. Sometimes the cheapest is the best way to go.

Originally Posted by silentC

a.If the blades come back and they're not flat, you withhold payment, send them back and tell them to try again.
b.I fail to see how a company that specialises in this type of work could stuff up a simple surface grind.
c.It's not exactly precision work.
d.They'll probably get the apprentice to do it.
e. Maybe Rippon are adding a $5 "annoying job" tax. Plenty of them do it.

You may be right, there may not be a problem..., BUT in response to the items raised above:
a. who wants the hassle (TS maybe?? I don't think so)
b. Do they specialise in this work? I don't know them, does any one know them and used them in the past?
c. I like to see the side bevels nice and even on my chisels!
d. I prefer an experienced machinist to do my work..
e. maybe the cheap guy is desperate and will have a go at doing the bevels (or anything else for that matter). Plenty of those guys around too, in my experience.

I don't know the answers, because I don't know the cheaper guy. .

I'm playing devil's advocate to a certain extent, because I know the knee jerk response from a lot of people will be to go with the more expensive guy. However I know a little bit about the light engineering side of things from my days as a sheet metal worker and I know that some jobs are a fiddly pain in the rear and so you charge more for them. Other guys who need the work might do it cheaper. Then you get into the whole argument of why they need the work.

My argument is based on the following points:

1. The job we're asking them to do is simple and not critical (for the plane blades)
2. Until TS used them the first time, Rippon where also an unknown quantity

If the plane blades and the chisels are tied together, so that we must use the same company for both, my opinion doesn't necessarily change but it is obviously more critical for the back of a paring chisel to be perfectly flat. The accuracy of the side bevels is aesthetic. BTW when I said "precision" I meant to within thousands of an inch.

I don't know the answers, because I don't know the cheaper guy.

Neither do I I appreciate the argument for going with the guy we know. It's not a deal breaker for me. I think in this particular case, the quality is unlikely to suffer but agree it's an outside chance.

As I am a mere guppy in the school of whales when my plane blade order (1 is all I am in for with this order) is compared to those placed by others (setting up retail outlets quantities almost), my view on Rippon/Alcol should be given the commensurate level of weight.

There is a lot for going with the devil you know argument, I get the feeling from numerous posts from TS that he has been given plenty of advice and pointers from Rippon in the previous bulk buys he has set up. Rippon do not seem to have treated the previous transaction with TS as a nuisance job to give the work experience kid.

Alcol should be able to give plenty of examples of the work they do if asked surely. I would imagine that they could show a piece they have done from a job they have in the factory at the time.

A little more work to be sure, getting to the relevant factory to view a random item and assess the standard to which they work and I perfectly understand why TS would be reluctant to travel across Melbourne to just look at a piece of flat steel. (by the end of this bulk buy, I am sure TS will be just sitting in a corner of a darkened room, rocking back and forth, muttering "lego is so much easier" over and over under his breath)

Perhaps I am wrong, but I would have thought an "in off the street job" of almost 500 pieces (just the plane blades) would be a reasonable quantity job....

I am happy to go with Rippon but like I said, I am in for the grand total of 1 plane blade so I should not be the vote that sways the decision. If those who are affected to a greater extent want the Alcol option, I am satisfied with that as well.

With only a few blades to pay for, and not having any expertise in what the grinding involves, I'm easy with whatever you decide TS about which workshop to use. But I can understand why those with more blades will want to keep the price down provided the quality is there.

Getting a sample blade done by the lower quote workshop could help decide this issue, however, it seems like you still have a lot to do in getting this (probably last) batch done, so I'm reticent to suggest any extra work for you, particularly given that I'm unable to contribute from over here.

The suggestion that the blades be returned for a re-grind if not up to spec sounds OK, but each additional grind is going to slightly reduce the final thickness of the blade, and as we know the thicker the blade is the better it performs.

Neil

The suggestion that the blades be returned for a re-grind ...

I'm looking at it from the point of view that it has not been ground enough to remove any hollows - in which case doing the job properly will result in a thinner blade anyway. I can't see what else can be wrong with a surface grind, unless they manage to grind it convex somehow.

Hi TS,

I like to confirm my order as per latest pdf.

Hi all,

Unless the work of the two grinders can be compared and checked against our needs/expectations it will be a gamble; saving a few dollars and risking our investment.

I like to play it save, and vote for Ripon

Axel

What will the Milling and grinding company actually Do?

After heat treatment, each blade should be slightly bent 0.2 mm to 0.5 mm over its total length, due to stresses in the metal and the heat treatment.

The operator has to pick up a blade, and see which way it bends and by how much. Then the blade must be placed with the bend facing up on a magnetic table. Then either using a surface grinder or a cupping machine. Now Alcol will be using a surface grinder and Rippon wants to use cupping machine.

What is a cupping machine? A cupping machine is the same thing that Veritas uses for its plane blades, and this will give us a flatter and smoother finish then a standard surface grinder. This means that the plane blades and chisels will need virtually zero work to get the back of the blade flat. However a cupping machine cost's more to run, and is slower but gives a better and more consistent finish then a surface grinder.

Now the operator has to grind down the top face until the 0.1 mm to 0.5 mm bend is removed. Then the operator has to flip the blade over, secure it on magnetic table, and grind that face flat. This is obviously a simplification.

Important

When I first approached Rippon, John quoted me $15 per plane blade as well. It was not until discussing our need for almost 45 minutes over three call's did John increase the milling and grinding quote to $20. The reason for this is that if everything goes well, and the blades only have a 0.2 mm bend in it the $15 will cover their time and cost. However if the bend is closer to 0.5 mm then it will take then much longer to get a flat face. In short the $5 covers the unknown variables in the Job, and since this is not a routine job it has a few unknowns for them. The $5 also buys us the cupping machine and a better finish.

What I am going to Do

I am going to tell Rippon that we have a cheaper quote by Alcol on the plane blades. Then see what John says. He may match it he may not.

Either way I would be willing to take 5 blades to Rippon and 5 blades to Alcol, and let them shoot it out. This however creates problems. It would make collecting funds difficult, due to the price difference. It is also allot of extra running around. Running to both Rippon and Alcol and then also storing the extra blade until such time. That we make our mind up. It seems to me however the only way to known for sure.