Thread: Wooden tool chest

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

Part of my thinking was that the nail head seemed quite unique. Have others come across this flat topped, 4 sided dome style before? There were also some cut nails holding the leather straps in place.

Yep. I've come across 'em at various times, although I can't tell you much about 'em. The round shaft indicates they're wire-cut, probably machine made and from the pix I believe I can see marks on the shaft where they were clamped while the heads were pressed.

Hand-operated machines to make this sort of nail were patented around 1890-1900 but that doesn't mean they're that early... I'm pretty sure they were commonly available until around 1950. There's also nothing to say they didn't sit on someone's shelf for decades after purchase before use so ya can't date the box that way.

Still, it gives you a rough date (early half of last century) and I would love to get my hands on enough in good nick for some of my projects.

Thanks Andy. I thought I saw those marks up near the head too, well done for seeing them in the photo. I thought they might have just been the effects of oxidisation but I think you're right.

The brownness in that aged timber reminds me a bit of Norfolk island pine, or perhaps Bunya?

Tight growth rings like that & the age of your box suggest Baltic pine (Pinus sylvestris) to me. A huge amount of it was imported in the late 1800s-early 1900s. A house I had in country Victoria back in the early 90s had "Baltic pine" floors..

And yes, I've seen those odd-headed nails occasionally, but can't tell you anything about who made 'em & why the heads were that particular shape....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Tight growth rings like that & the age of your box suggest Baltic pine (Pinus sylvestris) to me. A huge amount of it was imported in the late 1800s-early 1900s. A house I had in country Victoria back in the early 90s had "Baltic pine" floors..

And yes, I've seen those odd-headed nails occasionally, but can't tell you anything about who made 'em & why the heads were that particular shape....

Cheers,

The distance between growth rings and the probable large diameter strongly suggests old growth in a somewhat colder climate. The type of nail was from about 1880 till early 1900s. So ya quite possibly a Baltic pine. I don't think they were importing wood from North America in the early 1900s were they. If so then I'd say fir or pine from the US or Canada.

My guess is its Larch . A lot of the time I feel it is a guess when trying to name what softwood it is, unless its one of the distinctive ones. Ive seen it a bit in boxes or workshop benches of that age. I think Ive still got a big plank of larch somewhere that I haven't seen since I mooved. (see what happens when your surrounded by cows )
I googled Larch so here is some images . Larch timber - Google Search

Your one has a wavy sort of grain though that may just be an individual strange tree. The growth rings on end grain also look a bit weird . Almost straight for the whole width of board like the side of the tree it came from was almost was flat. Edit, I just realized that's why it has that wavy grain that looks like rotary cut veneer. Its the flatness of that end grain showing on the face where its different layers show through . If that makes sense. Hows the end grain in the bottom board! That is the bottom with the blue tape on one end isn't it? How high is the box ? 450mm high roughly? Typical nails for 1900 to 1930 roughly like others said .

Thanks Charlie, Ian, SD and Rob. I think Larch is an interesting suggestion. I have dealt with plenty of Baltic and it usually has tight little knots sprinkled through it. I'd love it to be an Aussie pine but I think its too old. Yes Rob the tape is on the bottom board (someone didn't make a big enough chamfer and blew out the edge while planing). The tree must've been huge because those rings are almost flat. Overall height would be closer to 400mm. 305 for the sides, 21mm for base and around 70mm for lid (I haven't measured lid). Out of curiosity I measured the angle of the dovetails because I thought they looked extra steep, 23°. Does this seem sharp?

I think it's pretty certain to be a conifer from a cold climate, and the coldest climates in this part of the world are in NZ & Taswegia, however it doesn't resemble anything from those regions. Callitris growing under tough conditions can have very tight rings, but you'd search a very long day to find one big enough to yield those planks. The big eastern conifers like Hoop & Kauri have no distinct rings. Summing up - it's highly unlikely to be a native wood, imo.

I like Rob's suggestion of Larch, it's a rarity amongst conifers in being deciduous, so indeed has short, distinct growing cycles. You could get a clue from its hardness (Larches tend to be harder than spruce/pine/fir) and density - they are usually more dense. However, there's lots of variation within species & as Rob said, with a few exceptions it can be difficult to impossible to identify a conifer to species, so I suspect a definite id will always elude you....

Cheers,

I did work on a house built in the early 1920s and it had those old style nails everywhere.

Bruce

Hi M.A.

I found a bit of information about nails that may be of help to you.

It is from a book ' Historic French Nails & Fixings'

I look forward to seeing the completed restoration.

Graham.

Here is a bit of an interesting guide to some nails Ci 1909. From one very good book . Nothing exactly the same but close.
The heads on these look similar but the shanks are either square or oval except for A and G .
I have come across the oval C type a bit in Aussie made things. Came across all of them in fact as well as much older ones.
D, E and F are remnants of the previous century . E looks a bit like the type that goes right back further, The hand made type. The hand made ones were tapered on four sides. Though that E tapered one looks like the stamped of the end of a sheet and the head done as a second step probably.

IMG_1782a.jpg IMG_1779a.jpg

IMG_1780a.jpg

Originally Posted by IanW

Tight growth rings like that & the age of your box suggest Baltic pine (Pinus sylvestris) to me. A huge amount of it was imported in the late 1800s-early 1900s. A house I had in country Victoria back in the early 90s had "Baltic pine" floors..

Concur with Ian.

My house was built in the 1880's and has Tasmanian oak floors, but all other interior brightwork is baltic pine - doors, door frames, window frames, architraves, skirtings, picture rails, fire surrounds, etc. It is extremely common here, for buildings before WW1. It was also commonly used as a secondary timber in furniture (eg drawer carcases) where it was usually called "deal". It was also used in utility items such as boxes; I remember deal boxes in my great uncles' workshop with two compartments.

Apparently or allegedly, a lot of the baltic pine was used as dunnage on ships to hold other cargo in place. Then, when unloaded, there was no customs duty on dunnage, but there was on timber.

Thanks Graham, Rob and Graeme. That nail information is great. I must confess to seeing nails as little more than consumables but something stood out about these ones. I don't feel so silly for cleaning them up and re using them. I had also heard that baltic pine was used as ballast in ships. Our standard weatherboard material still used today is baltic pine (but it's now primed both sides)!

Originally Posted by Mountain Ash

... I had also heard that baltic pine was used as ballast in ships. ...

No; totally wrong, wood was never used as ballast - it is too light. I work as a volunteer in the local maritime museum and am well versed in such matters. I'll explain:

Ballast This is heavy stuff - almost always lead on modern yachts, although iron and steel have been used - used to increase the stability and safety of a ship. In colonial days if a ship was sailing without a cargo or with a light weight cargo, then they would take on sand, gravel or rocks - cheap - as ballast. If they could replace this with a paying cargo then that was better, often something the ship owner hoped to sell profitably - and this could be metal ingots, bricks, cut stone, slate tiles, etc. Many slate roofs, still existant, started as ships ballast. Also, in the older areas there are quite a few houses built from British bricks and a few from British stone. Also, outside of old ports there are many artificial reefs where unsellable and unwanted ballast was simply thrown overboard.

Dunnage Imagine a laden sailing ship sailing along, healed to the wind. The forces of gravity would cause the cargo to slide to the lowest points, this would increase the healing, increase the "sliding forces" and risk the ship capsizing. To minimise this risk they built elaborate support systems in timber to hold cargo in place and reduce this risk. If they could also "repurpose" that dunnage and sell it as timber, then so much the better. Hence many ships were "over dunnaged", but the captain would just say he was very cautious on safety. Customs duty was not payable on dunnage! Why couldn't dunnage be mahogany?

Today These are still major issues. Modern container ships have elaborate systems to clip all the containers together and to the ship to stop them moving. It is not foolproof! Also all ships have ballast tanks so they can take on and adjust water ballast as needed.