Thread: Old Stock Saw Sharpening Files.

Better than money in the bank, Stewie!

You're ok for your larger saws for a little while, obviously, but I notice a conspicuous absence of 4" files. What do you use for very small teeth? Or are you kind to your eyesight & just avoid anything above 15 tpi?

It was a serious question, actually - since it looks like I'll have to stick with the needle files for a while, I was considering a bulk buy of the decent files I've been using, to ease the unit price a bit. Way things are going, they'll be making them well south of the Alps, soon, and they won't be worth buying at any price, - certainly not what they cost at the moment!

Originally Posted by IanW

Better than money in the bank, Stewie!

You're ok for your larger saws for a little while, obviously, but I notice a conspicuous absence of 4" files. What do you use for very small teeth? Or are you kind to your eyesight & just avoid anything above 15 tpi?

It was a serious question, actually - since it looks like I'll have to stick with the needle files for a while, I was considering a bulk buy of the decent files I've been using, to ease the unit price a bit. Way things are going, they'll be making them well south of the Alps, soon, and they won't be worth buying at any price, - certainly not what they cost at the moment!

Hi Ian. For 12 tpi and above I continue to use the Vallorbe 3 Square Needle Files #cut 3. http://jewellerssupplies.com.au/images/pdfs/P96_101.pdf

Stewie;

I have a couple of boxes of the Nicholson 7" double cut files (1 x XSlim, 1 x XXSlim), perhaps from the same source, wish I could remember where I got them! They are not in the 1942 Catalog, I wonder what their purpose was? In respects other than DC they are saw files, not 3-Square files, ie they have (single) cut edges. I must give one a try, I imagine the 7" DC XXSlim would be quick to shape 10ppi teeth, finished off with a single cut 6" XSlim (I don't have a 6" XXSlim) for smoothness. Unlike the 3-Square files, these DC saw files will not produce extra sharp gullets.

Incidentally I have 1/2 of a box of Frost 6" XSlim files made in Korea. These look and feel ok, but I have not used them in anger yet; 6" XSlim seem to be the most common files around, so I have a few.

Originally Posted by Heavansabove

I have a couple of boxes of the Nicholson 7" double cut files (1 x XSlim, 1 x XXSlim), perhaps from the same source, wish I could remember where I got them! They are not in the 1942 Catalog, I wonder what their purpose was? In respects other than DC they are saw files, not 3-Square files, ie they have (single) cut edges. I must give one a try, I imagine the 7" DC XXSlim would be quick to shape 10ppi teeth, finished off with a single cut 6" XSlim (I don't have a 6" XXSlim) for smoothness. Unlike the 3-Square files, these DC saw files will not produce extra sharp gullets.

Incidentally I have 1/2 of a box of Frost 6" XSlim files made in Korea. These look and feel ok, but I have not used them in anger yet; 6" XSlim seem to be the most common files around, so I have a few.

This may help you.

Facts on Files| Paul Budzik | Fine Scale Modeling

Originally Posted by planemaker

This may help you.

Facts on Files| Paul Budzik | Fine Scale Modeling

Useful summary Stewie, thanks. To quote on the question:

Single cut files have rows of teeth cut parallel to each other at an angle of 65 degrees from the centerline. Sometimes referred to as “Saw Files,” Single cut files are used for sharpening tools, finish-filing and draw-filing. They are also the best tools for smoothing the edges of sheet metal.

Double-cut files have rows of teeth crisscrossed so the teeth become diamond-shaped. The first row of teeth is called the overcut. On the top of these rows, a second set of teeth is cut at a different angle to the file axis. This row is known as the upcut and is finer than the overcut. Double-cut files are generally used for rough work and fast removal of material. They are sometimes referred to as "Machinists’ Files".

The DC taper files are not machinists files (that is 3-Square). Subjectively the XSlim DC feel more Smooth than 2nd Cut, compared to XSlim SC of same length, may be my imagination! Rummaging around I found another box of the XXSlim, so I should be ok for a while for this file size. The latest Nicholson Catalog states that DC saw taper files are for use in saw filing machines, I guess that partly helps explain the poor quality of machine sharpened saws. For careful reshaping (although DC generally requires more pressure to cut properly), or cutting in new teeth the DC should be ok, time to try one out.

Cheers
Peter

Originally Posted by planemaker

This may help you.

Facts on Files| Paul Budzik | Fine Scale Modeling

Just on a point from that site, and going slightly OT for a moment:

"Three Square: The triangular shape is excellent for use in corners and on dies. Three Square Files are double cut on the sides, single cut on the edges and taper toward the point in width and thickness."

No they are not. The edges aren't cut at all, which is why they are good for getting into internal corners - they don't erode the corner, just the material adjacent to it. This is the distinguishing feature of a 3-Sq file from a saw file (IMO the single cutting of the saw files faces is secondary - there are some DC SFs as Peter has illustrated). The correct diagram has been shown, and this also contradicts his definition (but it would be far from the first time that has happened with these diagrams).

That's the theory, anyway, but I think general consensus is that the cuts across the face give a "virtual" toothing on the edges because the cuts on the two faces have to meet up at the corner anyway.

Yeah, I know, getting pedantic in my old age.

Originally Posted by Heavansabove

Useful summary Stewie, thanks. To quote on the question:

Single cut files have rows of teeth cut parallel to each other at an angle of 65 degrees from the centerline. Sometimes referred to as “Saw Files,” Single cut files are used for sharpening tools, finish-filing and draw-filing. They are also the best tools for smoothing the edges of sheet metal.

Double-cut files have rows of teeth crisscrossed so the teeth become diamond-shaped. The first row of teeth is called the overcut. On the top of these rows, a second set of teeth is cut at a different angle to the file axis. This row is known as the upcut and is finer than the overcut. Double-cut files are generally used for rough work and fast removal of material. They are sometimes referred to as "Machinists’ Files".

The DC taper files are not machinists files (that is 3-Square). Subjectively the XSlim DC feel more Smooth than 2nd Cut, compared to XSlim SC of same length, may be my imagination! Rummaging around I found another box of the XXSlim, so I should be ok for a while for this file size. The latest Nicholson Catalog states that DC saw taper files are for use in saw filing machines, I guess that partly helps explain the poor quality of machine sharpened saws. For careful reshaping (although DC generally requires more pressure to cut properly), or cutting in new teeth the DC should be ok, time to try one out.

Cheers
Peter

Good information. if you have a close look at the top photo I posted you can just make out the MF on the end labels of the 4 boxes of Nicholson USA Taper Files.



Stewie;

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Just on a point from that site, and going slightly OT for a moment:

"Three Square: The triangular shape is excellent for use in corners and on dies. Three Square Files are double cut on the sides, single cut on the edges and taper toward the point in width and thickness."

No they are not. The edges aren't cut at all, which is why they are good for getting into internal corners - they don't erode the corner, just the material adjacent to it. This is the distinguishing feature of a 3-Sq file from a saw file (IMO the single cutting of the saw files faces is secondary - there are some DC SFs as Peter has illustrated). The correct diagram has been shown, and this also contradicts his definition (but it would be far from the first time that has happened with these diagrams).

That's the theory, anyway, but I think general consensus is that the cuts across the face give a "virtual" toothing on the edges because the cuts on the two faces have to meet up at the corner anyway.

Yeah, I know, getting pedantic in my old age.

Not pedantic at all. Good information. Can you tell me what the differences between DC and Swiss Pattern Files, 3 sided files. Apart from the different cuts available in SWPs

Stewie;

Originally Posted by planemaker

Can you tell me what the differences between DC and Swiss Pattern Files, 3 sided files. Apart from the different cuts available in SWPs

Not with any authority Stewie. I pretty much restricted the recent research to Saw Files. In doing so a lot of other info came up but i didn't take a lot of note.

So, nearest I could say (on which I'll stand corrected) is that Swiss Pattern Files reflect a different range of profiles to American pattern, and sometimes with a different kind of toothing pattern (e.g. a Checkering File).

Precision files, AFAIK, are just more accurate versions of the Engineer's and/or SPF, but they may well have a few more profiles in that class (and maybe even some deletions). Again, not sure, but I think it's the Precision files that come in the big variety of cuts.

I don't think any of those definitions/classes I mentioned define them as Double Cut - but it just happens to be that the vast majority of them are (kinda like a car with wheels isn't necessarily a Holden, but a Holden will have wheels).

Originally Posted by planemaker

Can you tell me what the differences between DC and Swiss Pattern Files, 3 sided files. Apart from the different cuts available in SWPs

Stewie, All Swiss Patttern (SP) files are double cut - with no corner /edge cut. The differences with American Pattern (AP) are:
1. SP are higher quality, designed for fine work
2. SP come in a wider range of coarseness/fineness
3. SP end in a point, AP have a blunt toe

All needle files are SP

Note: the Nicholson 1942 Catalog has SP 3-Square files that are single cut on the edges, the AP 3-Square files have uncut edges. Just to confuse us.

Cheers
Peter

So Peter, you're saying that SPF and Prcesion files are one and the same?

Originally Posted by Heavansabove

Note: the Nicholson 1942 Catalog has SP 3-Square files that are single cut on the edges, the AP 3-Square files have uncut edges. Just to confuse us.

Hair we go again .

For me, using the term 3-Square is the same as using common names for timber, that can so often be used incorrectly or misleadingly. You may remember how long it took, and how many different interpretations I read of "3 Sq" a few weeks ago. It's a stupid bloody term anyway given that it only relates to triangular files! The clearest interpretation I found was that "square" meant that the faces were square and therefore not distorted by cutting the edges.

As you well and truly know, it wouldn't be the first time the nomenclature has been a hindrance rather than a help! (re the diagrams showing cut corners when the description says that they aren't).

So, with that in mind I'd then label that catalogue as "politician's version" of the truth - whatever they need it to be at the time.

The only really safe way to buy a specific file is if the descriptions are full and complete (and they almost never are).

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

So Peter, you're saying that SPF and Prcesion files are one and the same?

I think "precision" may be loosely used, but generally SP files are used for precise work. Of course the Swiss also made AP files and rasps. I note in the most recent Lee Valley email, they are selling Grobet rasps - but these are not "precision" rasps, ie finest is #6, and they are not SP (which only applies to files, not rasps) - and Lee Valley do not say "made in Switzerland"; be interesting to examine the quality, but as US$72 ea I think I will pass.

Of course over 200 years ago, PS Stubbs was making watchmaker files in Lancashire (most of the cutters were women), so SP probably relates to relatively recent times.

Cheers
Peter

Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Not with any authority Stewie. I pretty much restricted the recent research to Saw Files. In doing so a lot of other info came up but i didn't take a lot of note.

So, nearest I could say (on which I'll stand corrected) is that Swiss Pattern Files reflect a different range of profiles to American pattern, and sometimes with a different kind of toothing pattern (e.g. a Checkering File).

Precision files, AFAIK, are just more accurate versions of the Engineer's and/or SPF, but they may well have a few more profiles in that class (and maybe even some deletions). Again, not sure, but I think it's the Precision files that come in the big variety of cuts.

I don't think any of those definitions/classes I mentioned define them as Double Cut - but it just happens to be that the vast majority of them are (kinda like a car with wheels isn't necessarily a Holden, but a Holden will have wheels).

Thanks Brett. Great work your doing with the online petition.


Stewie;