Thread: A few stupid plane questions

Originally Posted by chemfish

1) Is there any reason you can't just flip the blade in a BU plane to turn it into a low angle bevel down plane and visa versa?
2) I know higher angle is better for figured hardwoods but is there actually a down side to using a high angle blade (I would imagine it would have slower stock removal)?
3) Does it actually matter if you hollow grind or flat grind your blades?
4) Primary vs micro bevel.... is there a difference between having a 50 degree primary bevel blade and having a 25 with a secondary bevel to bring it up to 50? does having the secondary bevel just make resharpening faster?
5) I notice you can get scraper planes, is this just to save your hands from getting sore or is there an actual reason for having one?

Cheers for any and all help

A lot of questions there Mr Fish.
I think the Veritas BU Jack is a more versatile plane for a first purchase. It will handle all the jobs you listed.
Answers:
1) I don't think the blade will clear the throat if you flip it. I don't actually have any Veritas BU planes so I am just guessing here.
2) Much slower stock removal and increased resistance to pushing the plane forward. I think there is an issue with edge retention as well.
3) No IMO
4) A secondary bevel does make it easier to re-hone but 50° is awefully steep for a bevel angle. The secondary bevel is usually around 5° So 25° + 5° = 30°
5) Scraper planes are used to put a final finish on a large area with cranky grain, like a table top.
Your hands do get pretty sore using a cabinet scraper for long periods. You can also create hollows or grooves using a scraper because you only contact a very small area. Much less likely with the increased contact of a scraper plane.
These are just my thoughts and I am fully prepared to be contradicted by more knowledgable members. (It happens a lot actually)

Originally Posted by chemfish

1) Is there any reason you can't just flip the blade in a BU plane to turn it into a low angle bevel down plane and visa versa?
2) I know higher angle is better for figured hardwoods but is there actually a down side to using a high angle blade (I would imagine it would have slower stock removal)?
3) Does it actually matter if you hollow grind or flat grind your blades?
4) Primary vs micro bevel.... is there a difference between having a 50 degree primary bevel blade and having a 25 with a secondary bevel to bring it up to 50? does having the secondary bevel just make resharpening faster?
5) I notice you can get scraper planes, is this just to save your hands from getting sore or is there an actual reason for having one?

I saw the title of this thread & thought there was a new brand of plane on the market...

N.C. pretty well nailed it - I'll just expand bit on wot he said:

1) There is no such thing as a bevel-down, low-angle plane, simply because it's impractical. If you turn it bevel-down, the blade won't fit through the mouth on many (non-adjustable) LA types, but even if it does, ye canna cut anything wi' it because the back of the bevel will be riding on the wood instead of the cutting edge. To get the necessary 5* of clearance behind the cutting edge for a 20* bed (not enough anyway, on most woods, 8-10* is better) , you would have to have a bevel angle of 15* or less on your blade. A wee bit pointy & fragile!

2) High angle is harder to push and the edge wears more quickly.

3) To me it does, 'cos I'm lazy & don't like honing any more metal than I absolutely have to. I like hollow!

4) I am guessing you are talking BU blades, 50* bevels aren't possible on standard 45* bedded, BD planes. No, it doesn't matter functionally if there is a single bevel or a primary plus secondary. However, having a secondary bevel reduces the amount of honing by a very large factor...

5) Scraper planes give you both more & less than a card scraper - they are not totally interchangeable, though there is plenty of overlap. Everyone should have a couple of card scrapers in their kit, but scraper planes are perhaps a bit more esoteric, and not as essential as a couple of good bench planes, particularly when you are starting out.

Everyone will give you different advice on what is best to begin with, & only you can decide what is best for you. A BU smoother will enable you to do most of what is on your list pretty well, particularly if you get a couple of blades & you can switch cutting angles as appropriate. However, bear in mind that no single plane does everything perfectly - sometimes a longer, heavier plane is the bees knees, other times a shorter plane is better. Standard Bailey frog (45* bed, BD) planes work very well, when all is right, and good oldies can be had for a fraction of the price of a new BU. The cutting angle is almost the same as for many BU planes in standard mode, & the thinner blades are easier to hone (one of their selling points when they hit the market ~150 years ago), which might appeal to a plane newbie. If you work mostly in more traditional cabinet woods & softwoods, they are in their element. For most of the jobs you listed, I'd be reaching for my trusty #4 rather than a BU.....

Cheers,

I might throw this in from the sidelines - and correct me if I'm wrong - I think Derek said that for BU irons he preferred to have a primary bevel for them all of say 25* or 30* ... and impose a higher secondary bevel onto that for a 50* or whatever cutting edge, as it was less work to maintain.

Please note ... I could have mangled that completely ... he (Derek) started a thread in the past called "Camber ... umm ... <mumble mumble mumble>"

Cheers,
Paul

Very usefull information, thankyou all. I do believe that fact that different planes get marketed as either BU or low angle was getting me confused in regards to being able to reverse blades. Does after thinking about it make sense that a blade with an angle larger than the bed it's sitting on is not even going to touch the wood with the tip... well, I did label them stupid questions

I hadn't previously considered a Jack plain, they seemed just sort of in the middle of nowhere and most things I had read suggested a 4/4.5 and a 7/8 as a good starting combo. That said as a sigle starting plane it also seems like it should (with a couple of blades) be able to handle pretty much everything I need well enough.. guess it's not the jack of all trades for no reason.

A quick search for camber mumble mumble lead me to THIS. An interesting read, 25 -> secondary angle of choice for cambered blades as starting at 50 degrees will cause mental instability due to the amound of metal that needs removing.

Mate

IanW really does know his stuff ( he bloody well should, he's been doing it long enough! Maybe 150 years! Lol )

One thing I will add as I am a novice, super sharp is far more important than dead flat! ( I read that today and agree!) but more importantly a super sharp iron combined with scrapers will transform your work. I am just getting into sharpening and using scrapers and I have to say it bloody works. Point in case Tassie Blackwood is not easy to plane so I have been using a scraper and its coming up really well. The time it takes to sharpen an iron is ten minutes well spent and to think it scared me because people made it out to be so mystically so hard.

I picked up a Bailey no 5,6&7 but that No 5 is the one I reach for often. I make sure that its kept razor sharp and it's a dream. If your not a free hand sharpening guru get the veritas mark 2 honing guide, it really does work well.

Good luck

Originally Posted by chemfish

Very usefull information, I hadn't previously considered a Jack plain, they seemed just sort of in the middle of nowhere and most things I had read suggested a 4/4.5 and a 7/8 as a good starting combo. .

I am about as far from expert as one can be but my understanding of a basic set of planes (including the Jack plane) is as follows:

Jack Plane - For stock removal & basic dimensioning of your timber and getting the timber somewhat flat (due to it's longish sole).

Jointer Plane - For flattening the timber by way of it's long sole (usually a minimum length of around 22")

Smoothing Plane - For final presentation of the timber. Basically it's the last plane used.

There's a good article on Popular Woodworking by Chris Schwartz that outlines handplane basics.

Understanding Bench Planes - Popular Woodworking Magazine


All the best,

Scott

Originally Posted by chemfish

A quick search for camber mumble mumble lead me to THIS.

Well done, that man.