Thread: Talk to me about bevel up smoothing planes

Too many questions to answer. They each require a chapter.

Suffice to note that a high cutting angle (60 degrees) is pretty damn good for tear out control on most Oz timber, however a closely set chipbreaker is even better. By closely set, this is in the range of 0.3 - 0.4mm back from the edge.

You may wish to read this article I wrote a few years back. It goes through all your points, and more ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...omPlanes1.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

high angle or chipbreaker are your two key ways to eliminate tearout. They don't rely on edge perfection (and the comment about sharpening all the time that you'll get from a lot of folks, along with a really tight mouth, is a hard way to get anything done).

You will ultimately have very sharp no matter what. And you'll get there quickly if you want to, so you can set that aside. But the assumption that sharpness solves tearout is really just a matter of "shavings thin enough to not have the strength to lift solves tearout" and really thin shavings take a lot of sharpness. But that is an extremely incomplete tool to do anything other than spend a whole lot of time doing things that don't take as much time.

That's the type of shaving that is one or two passes after everything else is finished.

Tight mouth works but is ineffective compared to holding the shaving down either with a steep angle or chipbreaker.

The chipbreaker is the better solution vs. changing angles, but it also takes more to learn, and may depend on how much planing you do and if you'll be able to put in the time to set the chipbreaker without thinking and without "retrying" a bunch. The reason is that it's as capable as any reasonable angle you could plane with, but when set right, takes less effort to get a similar thickness shaving (you can plane more at a time) and the lower effective angle will on top of that, lead to longer intervals between sharpening and less dependence on outright initial sharpness to stay in a cut). It's also an easier plane type (due to less planing resistance) for planing assembled cases, and running across parts that are end grain and long grain combine.

All that said, I've used both types, and made planes with tiny mouths (twice the thickness of a shaving, so about .003-.004" mouth on an infill smoother and .012 on an infill panel plane (the latter wasn't a close enough mouth to stop tearout and allow the plane to work smoothly - it worked and nothing was catastrophic, but there was a lot of efficiency killing small tearout in the shavings (you end up taking two shavings instead of one to remove the same amount of wood, and an iron in and out of a cut will stay sharp less long and you'll have to sharpen at an earlier point because it's harder to enter a cut than stay in it.

Long story short, forget tight mouths as a primary means, and forget the idea of extreme sharpness that you have to constantly refresh because you may need to sharpen a couple of times just to do minor work on a single panel. High angle or chipbreaker, and if you're really not going to do much planing, the high angle plane may be easier to get along with. If you're going to plane a lot, the plane with a chipbreaker will be much less effort.

We don't have oz timbers here, but we get a lot of central american exotics and then there's some nasty stuff here that's used uncommonly (like persimmon) that's resistant to cutter entry beyond its hardness. But I'm in agreement with derek that if you really need a knock-out punch for tearout, 60 degrees is about where it occurs (as in, the plane will stand you still before there's much of anything showing on the surface). If you like that way of going, then a BU plane with an array of irons is a nice way to go because 60 is decent for really hard woods, and it'll work in others, but it's a bit much for pleasant wood.

Ahh the Kato and Kawai videos
Seems you're wanting something for nothing
This is the one case which the silver bullet actually exists, and you don't need run out and buy everything which your vendor of choice may provide.

Thanks to David I learned this, as there is a lot of folks who talk absolute rubbish about it.
I think his "setting a cap iron" document on woodcentral was what convinced me,
and let me tell you I wasn't all that eager to hone my cap iron so steep at first, as it was against what practically everyone else suggested.
The difference being that the results I seen from David's plane was clear to see.
Easy to tell when you get used to looking at the cap iron shavings, which should be straight or straighter.
Just beyond a medium cut on a closish cap iron setting..JPG
Derek is another who actually uses the cap iron to its potential, but one might get confused with the sheer amount of goodies
he has at the bench.

Just to say it again
No tight mouths when using the cap iron!, it will give the impression that the cap iron is as close as it can be set!....
That might not actually be close enough for certain species, but at the same time, the plane just won't cut.
Instead the shaving will concertina, and judder, well you might not actually find much info about that.
David W (above) made a video on that, should you be interested.


If a really close setting isn't needed, say you've set it at 1/32" (and if you happened to still have a tight mouth at this stage)...
then it's bloomin hard work to use, and won't give as good of a result, a dull finish and still likely to pluck some fibres out of the grain.
You won't gain anything by having the mouth close.
I have seen folks still convinced of having a close mouth with the use of the cap iron, and never happy in the end.

No tight mouths.
Most folk who work difficult species like the leading edge of the cap iron at around 50 degrees.
The steeper the cap iron, the further it can be set away from the edge.
I hone mine about fifty somethin, one plane the cap is set to no more than 1/32" or sometimes less than that, and reduce the camber to barely noticeable.


The other smother I keep around 1/64" from the edge, a camber so fine, only visible when paired with the cap iron.
I don't normally "set" my no.5 1/2's cap iron quite so close as below, and may I add...for me this setting requires the profile of the cutter to be closer to my smoother in camber.
Most of the time I'll try and keep the camber on my 5 1/2 a bit larger than this, for productivity's sake.
Sorry don't have a photo of that.

SAM_3787.jpg


Very few hone the cap at a lesser angle, but still demonstrate the influence of the cap iron.
Take Cosman for example, I think he likes it that way as he can grab shavings and do a little showmanship with his presentations,
What I don't see him doing, is taking another plane and tearing up the grain, and fix it with the other,
or even planing the cantankerous board from both directions for a flawless result.

No uber shapton hone sharpness needed either if you use the cap iron.

If you're going to plane exotics with a cap iron setting, then it might be worth noting that not many use a
4 1/2 plane, seen Rob using it but seem's he's made his mind up about what he wants.
I'd sooner the surer result of a guaranteed tearout free finish personally, and that extra resistance might be a bit much
for a wider cutter than a 4, which seems about the right size to me.

Tom

Interesting...

So this is making a lot of sense now... still have some questions though...

- In terms of effort - what is easier to push - a BU 60degrees or a standard frog/45deg (does a higher angle microbevel make it harder to push even though the blade itself is on a low angle) Or am I thinking about this too much? hehe
- Can you do hollow bevel, then 60 degree micro bevel then buff - basically unicorn method but with high angle microbevel (for BU plane - will it work the same as flat bevel or will the hollow ruin it)
- Are there any smaller BU smoothing plane options that is not Veritas other than the LAJ plane? I suppose something closer to a #4 size
- Also would like to hear why someone may choose the Veritas BU smoother or LA smoother they seem so similar just slightly different sizes

And a more technical question - does no tearout = smooth surface? I recently planed a board which had grain running the opposite direction towards the other end. The side which was planed with the grain was silky smooth and shiny, the other end looked pretty good but was spikey to touch.

Also, when planing end grain - can you get a super smooth result? I have never been able to plane end grain and have it feel better then sanding to 240

Originally Posted by qwertyu

Interesting...

So this is making a lot of sense now... still have some questions though...

- In terms of effort - what is easier to push - a BU 60degrees or a standard frog/45deg (does a higher angle microbevel make it harder to push even though the blade itself is on a low angle) Or am I thinking about this too much? hehe

equal to push

- Can you do hollow bevel, then 60 degree micro bevel then buff - basically unicorn method but with high angle microbevel (for BU plane - will it work the same as flat bevel or will the hollow ruin it)

hollow grind 25 degrees, secondary micro bevel at 50 degrees (=62 degree cutting angle). Use a honing guide.

- Are there any smaller BU smoothing plane options that is not Veritas other than the LAJ plane? I suppose something closer to a #4 size

Veritas Small BU Smoother is like a #3
Veritas LA Smoother is like a #4
Veritas Bevel Up Smoother is like a #4 1/4


- Also would like to hear why someone may choose the Veritas BU smoother or LA smoother they seem so similar just slightly different sizes

BUS is a dedicated smoother. More mass, thicker and slightly wider blade.

And a more technical question - does no tearout = smooth surface? I recently planed a board which had grain running the opposite direction towards the other end. The side which was planed with the grain was silky smooth and shiny, the other end looked pretty good but was spikey to touch.

Yes

Also, when planing end grain - can you get a super smooth result? I have never been able to plane end grain and have it feel better then sanding to 240

Not super smooth like sandpaper, but also not rounded edges like sandpaper

Regards from Perth

Derek

End grain varies. You should be able to plane the end grain of pleasant woods pretty easily. However, on harder woods, a lot will depend on how big of a cut you're taking (so planing something like the end of a large wooden plane can be difficult bordering on impossible (and the end grain of some woods is particularly nasty and may require the buffer treatment).

When I made my shooting infill, I used the densest piece of older purpleheart that I've been able to find. it's also the hardest and stiffest. It destroyed the irons of all of my shooting planes (I didn't know the buffer/unicorn trick at that point - I'm sure those would hold up, but it may be physically extremely difficult to plane nonetheless).

In my opinion, a smoother that's sharp with the wood sitting end grain up (so you can plane it like a "normal" piece of wood) is going to be easier than most planes, and I found the boutique planes to have the most friction. End grain imparts a LOT of friction and I'd estimate a chinese rosewood plane (less friction) to be about half the effort of something like a bevel up smoother. That plane is just common pitch, but I've since sold it off and generally use a stanley 4 (which is also much easier to get across the wood than either brand of BU jack that I've had in the past - I had both premium brands).

Generally, unless you're going to fixture something behind the wood, you have to work in on a wider piece from both ends (like a panel, something too big for shooting), and the texture will be slightly different in the two differing directions. But end grain should generally be hidden, anyway, and this isn't something that would show.

Thanks all

I will be putting a 50deg microbevel on my chip breaker when I get a chance and having a play. At the moment it is stock, which I believe Luban has it set to 25degs

They just put a primary bevel on a chipbreaker- I doubt they (the luban factory, or WR or whoever) do much using of planes, but they knew to copy that angle off of the LN cap irons.

If they copied it completely, then it's flat on the tip (that's easier for the manufacturer because there's no burr then on the front edge).

50 is the minimum, but a good place to start.

(actually, thinking about it, I think the hock cap irons look like they're sheared off clean without a front wall like the LN cap irons, and LV may be, too - I don't recall ever buying an LV cap iron).

There's a subtle curvature at the very tip of a cap iron that makes the plane most productive with it set, but you can kick the can down the road a little bit before you get that deep into it.

the microbevel - how big should it be? as soon as I feel a bur I stop or make it a little bigger?

Make it close to a millimeter.

Originally Posted by qwertyu

.......
- In terms of effort - what is easier to push - a BU 60degrees or a standard frog/45deg (does a higher angle microbevel make it harder to push even though the blade itself is on a low angle) Or am I thinking about this too much? hehe ....

I have to disagree with Derek when he says "no difference". It stands to reason & is borne out by my own experience that increasing the edge angle of a BU blade to raise the cutting angle will increase the 'wedge angle' and it is going to require more force to penetrate the wood fibres. There are two aspects to "sharpness", one is the angle at which two faces meet, and the other is how perfectly the two planes meet to form a single straight line. The more perfectly the two planes meet, the 'sharper' the edge in conventional terms but the more acute the angle at which they meet, the more easily it penetrates the material being cut. Think of an axe or a knife sharpened with "heavy shoulders" - no matter how perfectly honed the edge is, they are not very nice tools to use I can assure you.

Adding a back-bevel to a BD blade is going to increase the cutting angle, which rolls the shaving up more abruptly (the same effect as increasing the bevel angle of a BU blade) but it also increases the edge angle & the force required to penetrate the wood. You are essentially making the chip-breaker redundant on your BD plane so you might as well forget about double irons and use a single-iron high-angle blade. This has the advantage that you don't have to faff about getting that damned cap-iron perfectly mated & the angle at which it meets the face of the blade just-so (it took me a LOT of faffing initially). With the BD high-iron you can keep the edge-angle acute, which reduces penetration force compared with achieving the same cutting angle with a BU blade unless you increase the bed-angle. A 60 degree bed (& hence cutting angle) on a BD plane will still increase the cutting resistance, but not as much as you'll get by sharpening a BU blade on say, a 15 degree bed to give a cutting angle of 60 - that requires an edge angle of 45 degrees, which is going to feel less "sharp" than an edge at 30 degrees, no matter how perfectly the two faces meet. If you want to plane cranky grain & haven't the time or the inclination to muck about coming to grips with cap-irons, BU planes with steep sharpening bevels are one solution, but not the best, imo.

I certainly prefer my BU planes when it comes to cutting end grain. In this case,I don't think it has anything to do with cutting angles per se that makes them better, it's the blade geometry that absorbs the vector forces better. As DW says, you can plane end-grain successfully on less recalcitrant woods with an ordinary Bailey type plane. I used a #5 on my shooting board for donkey's years, not a perfect choice for that task, but it does illustrate their versatility. If I only owned one plane, I don't know what length or width I'd choose, but it would certainly have a double-iron, bevel down blade, at standard pitch. This configuration is much more versatile (& more pleasant to use over a broad range of tasks) than any BU plane I know.

However, all that said, there are many ways to put a good surface on a piece of wood, and the best way is the one you feel is most intuitive & satisfying - it'll usually work better for you in more situations than one someone else tells you is the "correct" way. If it doesn't feel right to you, you'll struggle to do the job. But keep an open mind as you go along, try different techniques & approaches & in time you'll arrive at a set of planes & ways of working that get the jobs done the way you want with an acceptable expenditure of time & energy. The latter becomes increasingly important as the years roll by....

Cheers,

I haven't needed to play around with the cap irons much to comment,
but can mention it doesn't seem such a bad thing if you do more than a lick on a hone.
Easy to try and see if worried.
I reckon you have a few goes, or should I say you don't just have one chance of getting it right.

I seem to remember honing a big flat on this iron, coulda been after I tried setting it with the tight mouth and failed,
(might not have been this plane which I tired)
Hit some cement with this cap iron a few times, so has been refreshed, along with going steeper for fun since I was at it, and back again to some angle that's should be 51 degrees, well that's what I was aiming for, don't know if that's what it is though.
SAM_3782.jpg

The underside might need be a bit sharper of an angle than some in guides I see, i.e dropped down a bit more.
That might all be down to the shape of the profile though.

If having trouble mating it with the iron, as in getting a lump in the centre, then honing the middle with something
narrower than the cap iron might be worth thinking about,
as its easy to flatten it afterwards once the ends are in contact with the hone.

Getting the camber right is another thing, make sure it's even.
I'll get my fingers dirty if need be, another tip from David, although he's got it down without getting grubby fingers,
I can't seem to do that and always have some inconsistencies, so to fix those.
"Directed pressure" is what David was talking about.
Not a very catchy name if I'm honest, but it works!

Which in my words comes across as....
Not having fingers very close to the edge and leaning, but having your fingers getting dirty and pressed on the spot to be removed.
(some might have seen folks spreading their fingers at the edge of a scraper is the same deal)

Tom

Apologies if I've missed it here, or in Derek Cohen's excellent write ups, but when matching a closely set cap iron to cambered blade, and given a small 0.3 to 0.4 mm offset, is it best practice or necessary to grind the cap iron with a matching camber?

Thanks in advance.

Salv

Never cambered my cap irons, the way I see it is, it never gets extended out of the plane.

Tom