Tantalising Saw Etches

**pmcgee** · 5th January 2014, 02:19 PM

No doubt this will be an ongoing thread ... as new ~~aggravations~~ delightful challenges come along.

Here's one from the last 'shipment' that I hadn't looked very closely at until Homesy came by to indulge my obsession a little, and determine whether Child Services needed a call.

On the surface it looked like a Disston D8-type saw ... but with a carved handle. It didn't match any of the standard models ... and warranted a little investigation.

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This is pretty typical condition for most of the saws I buy. I have started the investigation already in the photo ... but the blade tends to be a dark (stable as I understand it) form of 'rust' (iron oxide) ... usually with dust and rubbish and sometimes red rust too on top of that ... you can see what it is like near the handle.

I am rarely going to town to restore my saws ... if the handle has loose pieces then I'll glue them or bag them to keep them with that saw. The saws live inside ... in Perth, so I'm happy to have them minimally cleaned up and WD40'd. My first aim to to try to find out who this saw is ... what is its story?

Even after 100 years you can almost lay a bet that under the dark coating is nice steel. In order to uncover the makers etch, however, you need to clean off the dark material ... but only just. It's like scraping cream off a cheesecake, but leaving the nutmeg that was sprinkled on before the cream. It is sometimes a bit of work to start to get through to clean steel, but not go too far in the process.

Once you have seen a few etches you can estimate where they might be and go a bit harder/more robustly at an area away from there to 'make a window' and get an idea how much there is to remove. And you can alternate between sanding at the whole face, and working away at the darker edges around your 'window' to try to get just the right amount removed ... at least enough to start seeing some 'road-signs' if there are any there to see.

My quite course tool is well-used 80-grit paper, then well-used 120-grit. Contrary to what I started off reading about putting a flat block on your paper, I like to use two fingers (or more) and be very specific about how much pressure I'm applying and where. 2000 grit auto paper (mine is blue and grey) is really good for working on delicate areas and for giving a smooth-over to the whole area ... I think it improves the readability of the surface.

I do all my sanding in a pool of WD40 ... I put some on the saw too

Many things you can see better with a pool of liquid over it, and sometimes trying all different sources of light and angles and degree of background light or dark. You'll see in the photos how different the steel can look in different conditions.
Photographing the surface *a lot* (easy with digital) can help you too - as you'll see.

The WD40 will get brown-rusty as you sand ... I wipe off frequently and reapply, tilting the saw back and forth to get it to spread itself evenly over the area.

So back to this saw ... I was getting glimpses and nothing ... as it says in the title ... tantalising. This was on the 15th of December. Sometimes you will try to clean up a patch, trying to make some sense out of a likely section, and go too far - to the point the signs start to become less visible. I have a few times put a saw aside and come back to look at it after a few months and - I have so far assumed - the normal process of oxidation/aging has made the markings visible again over time.

But it is possible it could be all, or partly, a brain-reset. Just last night I looked again at the photos I had taken 3 weeks ago and it clicked what the story was.

**jimbur** · 5th January 2014, 02:42 PM

I'd been using a disston tenon saw for years before suddenly the right combination of sweat, sawdust and linseed made the etch legible.

**homesy135** · 6th January 2014, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by pmcgee

No doubt this will be an ongoing thread ... as new ~~aggravations~~ delightful challenges come along.

.....................On the surface it looked like a Disston D8-type saw ... but with a carved handle. It didn't match any of the standard models ... and warranted a little investigation.

........................So back to this saw ... I was getting glimpses and nothing ... as it says in the title ... tantalising. This was on the 15th of December. Sometimes you will try to clean up a patch, trying to make some sense out of a likely section, and go too far - to the point the signs start to become less visible. I have a few times put a saw aside and come back to look at it after a few months and - I have assumed - the normal process of oxidation has made the markings visible again over time.

But it is possible it could be all, or partly, a brain-reset. Just last night I looked again at the photos I had taken 3 weeks ago and it clicked what the story was.

And the story was?

**pmcgee** · 6th January 2014, 02:39 AM

This is an overview ... the blade cleaned up about as much as I dare for gathering info.

Nothing leaping off the page yet ...

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I can interpret the rest now ... but when I looked at it three weeks ago it was just jigsaw pieces.

Lefthand end of the etch ... sorta dragon-y looking thing going on ... and some writing I can't figure out.

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on the right hand side ... even the relatively clear writing isn't speaking to me ...

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**pmcgee** · 6th January 2014, 03:15 AM

Those photos were taken with WD40 on the sawblade.

These ones were taken without (I think) in a darker room ... with an LED light and the camera variously positioned to try to get some good pics.

The "dragon" ... and a "header" banner that wasn't obvious before ...

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... the writing at the bottom and the text ...

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It was the banner section that was the first thing to click ... "HSB" ... "Hibbard Spencer and Bartlett". I have one or two of that brand, but went searching online. There is lots of info for them, they were a large hardware business ...

http://www.thckk.org/history/hsb.pdf
https://archive.org/details/seventyfiveyears00kell
Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Company - HistoryWiki

and "Bingo!" ... http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/i...p?topic=5525.0
I forgot to say that looking at the saw this time around I had noticed the pattern of the carving ... the two branches originate offset from each other rather than inline. This saw handle is a good match for mine.

and you can now read "Hibbard" in the text under the etch.

**pmcgee** · 6th January 2014, 03:21 AM

Further ... I have pictures already online ... very handy compared to searching through the saws

... that explain the "dragon" and the rest of the etch ...

It might not be exactly the same ... but definitely close ...

https://plus.google.com/photos/10355...65489606721190

Job done.

**pmcgee** · 6th January 2014, 03:53 AM

Here was another on ebay ... I bought it ...

Vintage OUR Very Best OVB Hand SAW H S B CO Chicago 24 3 8" 10TPI | eBay

and a very clean one I didn't know about ... Vintage Hand saw I WILL SAW hibbard spencer bartlett chicago Strong mark look | eBay

Two more things ...

First I note that the "Bartlett" in HSB ... Adolphus Clay Bartlett ... started work for "Tuttle, Hibbard Co" as a janitor in 1864, a year before it became "Hibbard, Spencer & Co." ... and became secretary of the renamed "Hibbard, Spencer, Bartlett & Co" in 1882.

Finally an extract from the 75 years of HSB book ...

"In an atmosphere where promotions and rewards have gone to those who worked most willingly and most intelligently,
shirkers have automatically been eliminated and the organization
has thus been built for permanence. Not long ago, at a busi-
ness meeting of 25 employes, they discovered that their average
length of service was 34 years.

A few years ago, records showed
that August Schuman had been employed continuously as packer
for 50 years. Because he was a competent workman, he took
good care of his tools, and in his half century of packing goods
for shipment had used only two hammers. The first hammer
lasted for 27 years.

In the early days, the majority of new employes were young
boys and they invariably began at $4 a week. A young man
might show himself worth more than that after only a week's
trial, but unwritten law said that $4 a week should be his initial
wage. Perhaps there was a feeling that a proper sense of one's
unimportance at the start-off was good for one's soul.

Another
early tradition was that the newest employe in any department
should sweep the floor. Today, with more scientific manage-
ment in force, the belief prevails that it would be poor business
to have a new employe sweep the floor. Unless he is going to
make sweeping his life work, he should be learning something
more directly connected with selling hardware, without even
one day's delay.

Moreover, it turns out that floor-sweeping
requires a certain kind of skill. A newcomer, unaccustomed to
sweeping, is almost sure to take too much time and stir up too
much dust. Today all floors in the Hibbard plant are swept by
professional sweepers who, incidentally, are paid by the square
yard. "

**homesy135** · 6th January 2014, 10:22 AM

Good job, Paul.

Did you find any reference about the production of saws by Disston for HSB? The HSB saws certainly look like a quality product.

**pmcgee** · 6th January 2014, 06:33 PM

I don't know Paul ... I will check my copy of Handsaw Makers of North America for a reminder ... but I don't even know if it might have been always from a single manufacturer.

I called a halt prematurely ... I really meant to the research side I guess.

I had removed the handle from this saw in the intervening three weeks, ... and having a good idea of what the etch should look like now ... I did some more general cleanup.

The shape of the back-end of the sawblade is different ... simpler ... than many Disstons for example.
and I used the toe-end of the saw (thinner than the heel) to suss out the shape of the 'rebate'/cutout for the blade in the handle.
It looks like a simple two-linear cuts have been made.

The blade cut-out ...

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Where I'd gotten up to ... and after cleaning up as far as I will take it.

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**pmcgee** · 6th January 2014, 11:56 PM

Other than around the fringes of the saw, I went further with the detailed sections.

Often, despite finding some identifying details, it can be less than obvious what/where the whole etch is.
In this case, having a good idea of how it is set out, I cleaned further than I would normally ... but the details don't show in the full-view picture.

Around the script text, I sand along the lines of spacing between the lines of text ... and all over with the 2000 grit.
But the further you go, the more you might take away readable details.

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Again ... 2000 grit all over ... the Hibbert, Spencer, Bartlett & Co is clearer ...

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This is the whole main etch and - most satisfyingly - a model number ... "82" next to the "HSB & Co" ... same as the other one!

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**pmcgee** · 7th January 2014, 01:16 AM

Looking for the #82 I noticed the Disston #107 too ...

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The script from my first example is readable ...
"This Saw is made of Highest Grade
Crucible Steel Tempered and Set
by experienced workmen and it has
no superior.
AC Bartlett Chairman"

The 107 has a nib ... which will suggest a date range. The Bartlett Chairman reference should also provide a date range.

**homesy135** · 7th January 2014, 10:01 AM

That is very satisfying, Paul, finding a model number.

After seeing your photos, my eye was tuned to saws having just the wheat pattern on the grip but not on the cheeks. I noticed some Simonds saws have a similar distribution of carving on the handle: Nos 72, 372, 7 and 25 among others (1919 catalogue). Upon further research there is just too much variation in placement of the carving, for instance, the earlier No 25 has carving on both the grip and cheeks (1910 catalogue). Also, the Simonds examples generally have screw above the medallion whereas the HSB saws lack the screw (as there is no blade extending into that portion of the handle).

I thought I was on to something despite your 82 having a Disston medallion.

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