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  1. #1
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    Feb 2016
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    Default Tenon Saw - Recommendations?

    Wizards and Gurus, I'm getting a tenon saw to assist with my hand work.

    I've been using my Japanese saws and well, they aren't quite right for the hard timbers I'm using at the moment.

    This is a spurred on by a few other convo's occurring right now. I did a decent search of the forum but couldn't find a thread on "what to buy" that wasn't a decade old....

    SO!

    -- I'm doing 98% handwork now
    -- I've dovetail saws (veritas second handies)
    -- an excellent complement of Japanese saws and acquiring a frame saw (another thread)
    -- These are for cross and rips for .... tenons!
    -- I don't know the difference between a tenon and a carcase (but I'm sure to find out)

    SO SO!

    Can anyone recommend an excellent saw?

    I've looked at the Veritas, the PAX and some second hand oldies... but don't know what is "good".

    Any quick pointers, or simply advice of "buy this, you won't regret it".

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Perth
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    407

    Default

    All my tenon saws are refurbed Disstons and old English makers. If I were to buy new I'd get a Lie Nielsen. Something in the 14-16 inch range with 12ish tpi filed rip pattern. Hard to imagine regretting that purchase. Cheers, Zac.

    Sent from my SM-A115F using Tapatalk

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2021
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    Default

    I bought the Veritas tenon saw in rip pattern and have found it has quite pleasing results.

    It’s nice and comfortable and I can hold a line much easier than my cheap Irwin one.

    It probably needs a sharpen a few uses after coming out of the box though, waiting for my saw files to arrive!

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Hobart, Tas
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    1,211

    Default Tenon Saw - Recommendations?

    I went through this exercise last year before Matts “Great Saw Giveaway”.

    The consensus seemed to be that the best value saw by far was the Veritas. The only negative was that some didn’t like the styling. It cut just as well as the rest.

    If wanting a traditional styled saw, then the Lie Nielsen.

    In the end I restored a couple of back saws, so never ventured down the new route.

  6. #5
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    Jun 2010
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    Bundaberg
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    3,402

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by woodPixel View Post
    -- I dont know the difference between a tenon and a carcase (but Im sure to find out)
    A carcase saw is filed as a crosscut, a tenon saw is filed as a rip
    Nothing succeeds like a budgie without a beak.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Albury
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    3,019

    Default

    +1 for refurb'ed saws. Look at flea markets and on Gumtree/Facebook Marketplace. Something in reasonable condition can be cleaned up and sharpened relatively easily, and they're as cheap as chips. I even use one as my dovetail saw. I realise that you are totally addicted to shiny new tools though Evan, so this probably won't happen.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Perth
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    10,810

    Default

    For my use, I prefer a Gramercy Tools Sash Saw: The Gramercy Tools 14" Sash Saw

    Length of blade 14", 13ppi, depth of cut at the toe 2.87" depth of cut at the heel 3.29". 5 degree's negative rake and 7 degrees fleam. Plate thickness: .020". Closed handle made of American Black Walnut. Hand finished, folded brass back. Saw teeth are hand filed and hammer set. Made in USA.

    What I like about this saw is that it is light, which makes for less fatigue and more control, and the thinner plate (0.020” vs others at 0.025/0.032”) speeds the cutting with the relatively finer teeth (most other saws are in the range of 10-11 tpi).



    Now I am talking about the majority of furniture-sized tenons, which are in the range of up to 2-3” across. Also, almost all the timber I use is Australian or US hardwoods (e.g. Jarrah, Hard Maple).

    The down side of this is cost. Still, I mention it as I can discuss some of the qualities of relevance for consideration hen choosing a tenon saw.

    I can go larger. I have a 16” Wenzloff - absolutely, hands-down a stunning saw, but it is too large for most of what I do. I purchased this over 10 years ago, when Chris Schwarz was exerting all to buy big. The relevance of mentioning this saw is also that the teeth are 10 tpi, and the 16” LN is 11 tpi, as I recall, and has a 0.032” plate. Too much like the Wenzloff. LN do have a 14” Carcase Saw, however it is filed crosscut.

    I have not used the Veritas tenon saw, so cannot comment. I do have a couple of their dovetail saws, which are great, but that is not a tenon saw.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Millmerran,QLD
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    Default

    WP

    In some regards you pays your penny and takes your choice, but much revolves around your actual budget. Lie Neilsen have a good reputation but so do most of those other brands.

    The other option is a "bespoke" saw. There is at least one other Forum member in the process of making saws and you may wish to contact him or wait for the results when posted to see if they appeal. Aother possibility is to go for a restored and sharpened vintage saw.

    Perhaps you could suggest the size and ppi you are looking for. 12" in the 10ppi to 12ppi range would be common with the choice of crosscut teeth or rip teeth. Ideally you have one crosscut and one rip .

    Regards
    Paul
    Bushmiller;

    "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"

  10. #9
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    Jun 2003
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    Sunbury, Vic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushmiller View Post
    WP

    Ideally you have one crosscut and one rip .

    Regards
    Paul
    As well as a Tyzack which I bought in the early 1960's, I inherited 2 from my father-in-law ( a Spear and Jackson and one un-named) which I had professionally sharpened - one as a crosscut and one as a rip. I have marked them with texta so that I can easily identify which is which.
    Tom

    "It's good enough" is low aim

  11. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    Dandenong Ranges
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    Default

    Hi Derek. I still learning (aren't we all though) and I thought that rips saws don't get sharpened with any fleam. Obviously Gramercy know what they're doing so is the fleam (which is only slight) there to improve the quality of the saw finish on tbe timber?

  12. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    Coffs Harbour
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    Default

    Hey Ev. I've managed to pick up a few nice old saws that I've been enjoying restoring and then practicing sharpening skills.

    I haven't been able to afford the LN and Gramercy style saws mentioned already. Not to mention lead times for making have blown out due to covid and shipping Ive just stopped thinking about them for now (with exception to the frame saw lol) also don't like the look of veritas saws. Prefer western saws but do own one or two Japanese saws.

    I've only paid approx $60 per saw I've been able to pick up second hand, even one today on gumtree so should keep me going for a while now I've got a carcass , tenon saw, small and larger dovetail etc. Should last a long time and aside from sharpening will remake handles to fit my large hands eventually.

    Keep an eye out

    Cheers
    Nathan

  13. #12
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    Apr 2001
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    Perth
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Ash View Post
    Hi Derek. I still learning (aren't we all though) and I thought that rips saws don't get sharpened with any fleam. Obviously Gramercy know what they're doing so is the fleam (which is only slight) there to improve the quality of the saw finish on tbe timber?
    MA, the reason for fleam is to improve the way the teeth enter the timber. Think of it this way: crosscut teeth slice the timber, thereby creating a cleaner cut. With rip-filed teeth, the more fleam, the closer the teeth get to become crosscut teeth. All-fleam = crosscut. However, for ripping, crosscut teeth will be slow (just do not chomp through the wood as do rip teeth). So, the more fleam, the smoother the cut, but also the slower the cut. Adding a little fleam to rip is a good idea when working especially hard timber.

    Now I must remind all that I am talking ideals here. that is, if one could put together the ideal tenon saw, one might have a thinner plate, more forgiving teeth that still cut fast, and light weight. In reality, just about anything will do the job. I have a Disston #5, which is 12", and filed 13tpi rip. 0.025" plate. It does a good job. I have another 14", Sanderson ?, with 12 tpi rip. It, too, does the job and very nicely, I should add (both filed by myself, so there!). Rake is important as well, and I cannot recall these at this moment. The Gramercy is better, but not the only way to get there. (I might add that I purchased this saw in 2013 when visiting Joel at Gramercy in New York. Good memories).

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Canberra
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    Default choice overload!

    So many considerations.

    Delbs - those saws look incredible. I'm impressed at the sexy look of those restorations.

    I really love watching the threads where people get some manky old unloved shed-find and make it not only useful but show-worthy.

    I also love the threads where raw materials are made into a tool of ultra-envy.... take the hand plane challenge being run right now.... some of those are intensely desirable, both as a machine, but art.

    It such a thing of beauty and in many ways art. Love it.


    Now, do I buy, do I restore.... jeeeessssuuussss.... all I wanted was a "buy THIS saw and stop thinking"..... hehehe. Nay!


    There is a thread on sharpening - discussing fleam and whatnot, I'll need to find that (I do remember it exists). No doubt its pinned on some forum. I do enjoy reading and understanding all the technicalities on this...

    SO ... this will bring up ANOTHER thought process on files. I think this was only discussed recently (wish the forum had better search!).


    WHEW!

    p.s. Aldav - YES I do love my shiny things

  15. #14
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    Mar 2015
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    Melbourne, Vic, Australia
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    Default

    I'm no expert sawyer, but I much prefer thin plate saws - the thinner the better. I have a 14" Bad Axe tennon saw with a 0.018" plate 3" deep, 13ppi rip filed with a bit of fleam. Minimal set (approx 0.002") I like it a lot but will file it pure rip next time I sharpen. I also have a 16" Lie Nielsen filed 11ppi rip but it's the thick 0.032"plate and came with a lot of set to the teeth (.004" per side). I didn't like this saw until I removed some set (0.002") per side which helped but I'd much prefer the 0.016" thin plate version I think.

    Better add some photo's - sorry all I have at hand -

    IMG_20210402_203447_354.jpg

    Cheers, Dom

  16. #15
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    Saws are worse than planes when it comes to the wide range of personal preferences!

    Derek says he likes a 14" (350mm) tenon saw for furniture-sized work, whereas I much prefer a 12" (300mm) 10tpi saw with an approximately 70mm depth of cut for larger tenons and a 250mm 12tpi for anything less than 60mm across. Maybe because I'm getting old & feeble, but I liketo use the smallest tool that will comfortably do the job. You do need to consider the length of your arm & what makes for a comfortable stroke - sawing with full, even strokes not only gets you there quicker, the cut will generally be neater & cleaner (less of that fine wobble that's hard to eliminate entirely). But learning to saw with the full blade whatever its length is one of the skills you acquire with practice. I probably use my 250mm saws the most, but that represents the scale of the work I'm currently doing.

    As far as tooth profiles go, I did a fair bit of experimenting with hybrid teeth, rake angles etc., but gradually devolved back to simple straight-across for rip teeth and bog-standard 15-20 deg fleam on crosscuts. Rake angles make the biggest difference to the comfort/speed/aggressiveness equation of rip saws. Ripsaw teeth are better thought of as scrapers, and if you use scrapers much you'll know well what a difference attack angle makes to a scraper blade. There are situations where you want to angle a scraper blade, but in general, a straight-across approach works just as well or better. And the simpler the tooth geometry, the easier it is to sharpen accurately, not only for a beginner but for a moderately experienced sharpener. With rip saws, sharp & even teeth are paramount.

    I don't agree that "the thinner the better" with saws. There's a trade-off between weight and robustness, and for medium-sized saws, 20-25 thou plates are a good compromise. A 20 thou saw of the same pitch & profile & spine weight as a 25 thou plate saw does NOT cut any quicker. The thicker saw requires a little more energy input per stroke 'cos it's removing a little more wood, but if you can detect the difference an extra 5 thou of width makes you're a far more sensitive chap that I. The major difference in feel & speed of cut people find when comparing two similar saws is far more likely to be related to a difference in sharpness or the quality of the sharpening..

    And yes, carcase saws are generally filed crosscut, but there is another important difference from a tenon saw in my view & that is the handle. When using a saw on a bench-hook, which is how I most often use a carcase saw, the saw is held much lower down than when sawing tenon cheeks. To maintain a more neutral (& comfortable) wrist angle, I like to have the grip rotated up toward the horizontal plane a little. For occasional short sessions of sawing it doesn't make a huge difference, you can simply lean down a bit to get your arm behind the saw. However, if you spend most of the day doing this your back will tell you there needs to be a better way.

    For each of us, size, experience, height of bench, type of woods sawn & our personal idiosyncrasies mean there is no magic formula to decide what size, handle shape, pitch, or precise tooth profile is "best". With time & experience you'll gravitate to the saws that suit you, or learn to get along with what you've got. The problem is that there just aren't as many saws around nowadays in the range of styles sizes & tooth pitches that existed 100 years ago, so it's difficult to get your hands on a sufficient range of saws to really find what suits you best.

    Unless you start making your own.....

    Cheers,
    ian
    IW

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