Thread: Timber planes as in made from timber identification

Sounds like a pretty standard wooden jointer apart from the adjustable mouth… can we get some pictures please?

Will do.
I will take some in the morning when there is some better light.
thanks for help.

I'd be looking at a simple dowel and glue fix. If you wanted to, you could use some threaded rod one size down from your drill size (ie, M8 in a 10mm hole) and epoxy instead.

That’s different!

Definitely a wooden jointer but I’m thinking it was home-made (or commissioned) by a very talented craftsman. I don’t recognise the timber; I think it’s an Aussie gum of some sort. It doesn’t look much like any common US or European wood.

That adjustable mouth is not at all common on a jointer where a tight mouth and a finely set iron are unnecessary for 90% of the jointing work; I don’t think it came from an established manufacturer. The iron is a Ward but they were readily available to both the general public and to smaller planemaking firms. The plane looks like it’s hardly had any use at all so it’s definitely a keeper; whether you put it to use or keep it for display.

The handle appears to have been made from two thinner pieces laminated together. In the recess of the plane body there appears to be a glue line right down the middle; if so try and dig some out. If the bits can be easily melted in very hot water then it’ll be hide glue which means the broken pieces will come out with the application of some steam. If it’s a more modern PVA then you’ll likely have to carve or machine them out. You might be able to simply glue the handle back in place if it’s a good tight fit, epoxy would likely be the most suitable.

The steel parts can be de-rusted using a wire buff if you have one. If the iron is too badly pitted to be put back to work you can get a replacement quite easily; they come up on Ebay, Gumtree, Trading Post etc quite regularly.

What do you want to do with it?

Thank so much for your thoughts. I agree with everything you have said. It is definitely Australian Eucalypt and very fine grained, not sure of species amd you are correct it has had very little use. I would like to get it up and running just to see what it was like. It was part of a group of planes I rescued from a garage sale which included an early 1900’s Stanley #4C small adjuster low knob that was sitting in 1” of water thankfully not for long and will be OK. There grandfather was a master cabinet maker and could well have made the jointer as an apprentice ?

I will have a better look re handle construction, glues etc and get back to you.
to be honest I have not had a lot of time to look really closely.

once again thanks for you thoughts.

As the Chief said, looks like a user-made job, and by someone who knew what they were doing! It has the potential to be a very nice plane, & as CT said, if the blade is unable to be rescued, there are plenty around. I've got a couple that are in much better-looking condition than that, so if one is the right size you can have it for postage.

That's an odd break for a handle - they usually break across the grip where they are weakest. Re-gluing it if it's a fresh break & adding some reinforcement like a couple of dowels might work ok. I'd use wood for the dowels though, much easier to deal with than a steel dowel if it doesn't turn out satisfactorily & you have to have a 2nd go at it. I'd advise against using a PVA glue - hide glue or another type of non-creep glue is what's needed in that situation. If the bloke what made it was an old cabinetmaker, there's a very good chance that's what he used in the first place which makes life easier if you do need to remove the broken stub.

Personally, I wouldn't muck about trying to glue the break. In my experience, you almost never get a really sound joint glueing a break unless it's a very, very clean one, and it's going to be under stress in use, so a failure is highly likely, imo, even with dowels, which are going to be hard to place neatly in that situation. I'd dig out the residue & trim the existing handle to a nice, clean surface & glue on a fresh piece that can be trimmed & shaped & re-fitted to the plane properly. It looks like it the break is entirely within the body, so you won't need to find a perfect match for the existing wood. Using a similar species would be advisable, but you are not likely to have significant mismatched moisture movement over such a small area.

Actually, tbh, unless the existing handle is particularly attractive or there was a compelling need to preserve it, I'd probably make a new handle - easier & more certain of a sound repair....

Cheers,

Interesting plane . It would be good to see a side view of the handle and a picture of the wedge.
It looks either UK or Euro build to me . It could be a Birch body by the looks. The style of Handle and wedge would give better clues.

Its broken handle looks as if it has a saw cut and possibly veneer or wedges placed in the slot on insertion to the body . To spread it when its been put in . Or to widen it for a sloppy fit. Unless what I'm seeing is a veneer in the upper part of the handle as well . A two piece job for decoration. It looks like the bottom of a saw cut though. The arrows in the bottom part show the end grain veneer or wedges .

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So that means taking out the broken bit has to be done by destroying it . I wouldn't do that .
Unless it was soaked in warm water and the veneer or wedges could be fished out . I doubt it would work and it would be messy.

Id do a dry test fit and then make a pattern to clamp the handle if it needs it by cutting a reverse shape with a flat top . And I'd two pack glue it back together. Araldyte or Techniglue . When its clamped together wipe off the squeeze out with turps on a rag a few times and its a nice clean job . Then if that fails in the future Id consider a new handle . How much use is it going to get any way ? if its going to sit on a shelf most of the time and be used for a bit of a try to see how the old guys worked then keeping it original is much better.


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Hah! An old dog for a dusty road eh? I hadn't even considered the handle might've been wedged but I think you've nailed it, Rob. The grain in the broken end of the tote looks contiguous on each side of the putative saw cut, which makes it less likely it's two-pieces glued together - the OP should be able to confirm for us very easily if it's solid or not.

It would not surprise me at all, given the level of workmanship on the rest of the tool, that it's a deliberate thing rather than a patch-up because the slot was cut a bit wide. Using a "fox-wedge" is something most backyard toolmakers wouldn't think of, but an experienced old cabinetmaker obviously might ( ). The saw-cut might help explain my puzzlement as to why the break is inside the mortise. It might have weakened it enough that a low, sideways blow snapped it off....

Cheers,
Ian

Ive never liked those Fox wedges much Ian. Ive had to do them once or twice . I don't remember what it was on now.
For repair on old stuff If things become loose they wobble about but wont come out as I'm sure you know.
When I do wedge from the outside. I like to do them out closer to the edges where I do two with the flexible thinner wood rather than one in the middle . Trying to get the middle to flex out and grab the sides tight is asking for trouble Ive always thought.

I once had to pull some loose legs out on an old Windsor chair seat for a reglue to some of the horizontal rails . Almost an every week occurrence in an antique repair and cabinet making workshop where we were. They had a tiny bit of movement but the amount of effort getting them out of that seat was huge . I'm sure I had come across some legs that had been shrunk by extra drying then turning the ends before glueing into the seat. I cant see how they got them in with any glue on them otherwise.

Maybe fitting a 1/4 sawn plane handle into a timber body would be good that way . They come loose a bit . You see plenty with an old nail up the front in an attempt to keep it in place.

Rob, I've done foxed wedges precisely twice. One lot was for a Windsor style chair, & I can't remember what the other was for, it may have been a repair on something - I vaguely remember posting on it, but it was a very long time ago & the pics would be gone. We are getting off topic, but the plane does have some sort of wedge, so it's probably worth describing briefly what we are talking about in case the OP is wondering what we are blathering on about.

Making a "foxed" wedge involves setting a wedge or wedges in a tenon (round or square) and driving it into its mortise so the tenon is expanded inside the mortise. The mortise is usually cut with sloping ends to allow for the expansion of the tenon & lock it in firmly. Chair makers used a type of spoon bit to drill holes that expand as they go in, & sometimes used foxed wedges, but in some places at least, they would use another approach, which was to dry the tenon ends of the legs in hot sand 'til they were zero MC, size them to a tight fit, then tap them in & let the end expand as it re-equilibrated to the 12% or so of air-dried wood. (Was that the type of joint you were wrestling with Rob?)

It's tricky to get everything just right with foxed wedges, the wedges have to be just the right length & have the right amount of taper to fully expand the tenon as it is driven home. You only get one go at it, & if you miscalculate, you either have the tenon jam before it's fully home, or it doesn't tighten sufficiently by the time it's seated. Either way you have a devil of a job to dismantle so you can try again. I'm sure if you did them every day you'd quickly get it sorted, but the first one you make is a bit nerve-wracking!...

Agreed - it's far easier/safer/more certain to wedge a through tenon! I'd suggest to Brett that if he decides to make a new piece, just make it a good fit, use hide glue, & don't worry about wedging it

Simply epoxying the old handle back onto the stump is highly likely to be successful (if you use the full-strength, slow-cure type), it's the one glue that can make a really strong joint of a break like that. I guess I just hesitate to use epoxy in a situation like this 'cos if for whatever reason it doesn't work, it's such a cow of a job to clean things up to start over....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Chair makers used a type of spoon bit to drill holes that expand as they go in, & sometimes used foxed wedges, but in some places at least, they would use another approach, which was to dry the tenon ends of the legs in hot sand 'til they were zero MC, size them to a tight fit, then tap them in & let the end expand as it re-equilibrated to the 12% or so of air-dried wood.

(Was that the type of joint you were wrestling with Rob?)

Yes Ian. I think it had to be that method that was used as I was hitting and pulling that leg through a hole that wouldn't let go . For a good fifteen minutes with multiple attempts. Making sure I didn't split the seat which can happen.
They put glue in with those dried out tenons too which helps quickly expands the dry wood . I think I saw them doing it without glue in a book on green chair making as well .

Rob, I've not tried the "dry & expand" joint myself, I've only read about it. I'm pretty sure the method is described in J.D. Alexander's book, but my copy has gone AWOL atm, so can't confirm that....

Yairs, some hot, dilute hide glue should kick the re-hydration along.....

Cheers,

We used to make these planes or similar as apprentices. The handle was split along the base with a saw, the sides of the mortise were slightly dovetailed, likewise the sides of the handle tennon to form a seating shoulder. The thickness of the handle was a neat fit to the mortise and slightly dovetailed to the seating shoulders. When the handle was inserted into the mortise, the plane was inverted and the handle with wedge driven home by tapping the inverted plane on the bench. The bodies were made from grey iron bark as it became smoother with use more quickly than other hardwoods (or so we were told.) It would be fair to say that a lot of these planes never got used and were kept for sentimental value only.

There is a very interesting mix of ideas here.
I will post a few more pictures of the handle and break latter today.
what looks to be thin slices of veneer left in the plane body in the very Center of the break is actually three short pieces of thin sheet metal which has rusted looking like a dark veneer. Like most of you I thought it was a veneer.
I have not determined if it is hide glue or not yet and have not had any experience with the old animal glues.
I really appreciate your input as I would love to get it up and working as I think it would be a nice thing to use.