Thread: Time for a handsaw or two?

OK, I cannot add anything more useful to the best choice of saw.

But I'd like to commend Lance on the table design. I really like it and am tempted to plagiarise it for a small table my wife wants me to build.

Although in terms of saw, would a half back saw be a good choice too?

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Originally Posted by Cklett

OK, I cannot add anything more useful to the best choice of saw..... Although ....... would a half back saw be a good choice too?

I think you just added something quite useful, Ck.

For those not familiar with them, "half-backs" were a type of saw that was made for quite a while, (~1850-1920) - see the pic on the Disstonian site (scroll down the page to find it). Obviously, it was felt to be necessary throughout the Victorian era, but things changed when the 20th C rolled round & it fell out of favour & was dropped in the re-organisations of the post-WW1 years.

I came across a picture of one early in my saw-making frenzy, and was intrigued by the look of it, so I made one for myself & ended up making several more for other people. I wasn't much fussed on Disston's handle, it looks a bit awkward to me, so I designed my own version "inspired by" theirs. This one has an Olive-handle just to be a bit different:
Halfback olive b.jpg

A dozen years on, and my halfback doesn't come out as often as it once did, but every now & then there's a job it can manage more conveniently than a "full-back". The little bit of spine doesn't do much in terms of adding stiffness, for my saw that comes from the thickness of the plate, which at 0.032" is fairly thick - you could get away with less if it was well-tensioned, but my tensioning skills are still at the primitive stage.

I reckon a half-back can be a useful tool to have in your kit, but perhaps it's best feature is it always attracts attention from other tool junkies & makes a good conversation starter.....

Cheers,

Originally Posted by ian

The issue for Lance with this style of saw is that 12 or 15 tpi is much finer than what will comfortably cut when making bridle joints.
9 tpi (as is the 16 in long Veritas) is about as fine as I like to go when cutting those types of joint.

I had looked at my two hard point saws. One is 9 tpi, the other 8. I think the 9 would be preferable for the finer work I have need for at the moment. Who knows though, assuming a better saw will be far more controllable, it may not matter betwen 8 and 9. I do agree however that much beyond 10 tpi would be a little fine and just take too long.

Originally Posted by Cklett

OK, I cannot add anything more useful to the best choice of saw.

But I'd like to commend Lance on the table design. I really like it and am tempted to plagiarise it for a small table my wife wants me to build.

I'd love to take credit for this, but is a design by Mike Pekovich. I'll post a separate thread when it's completed with further detail.

I agree with you CK. Lance your table is lovely (and MP does create some beautiful pieces)

Second-hand tool markets seem to go in two ways, things being way overpriced and way underprice.

In the first category - things like Stanley 71 router planes are going for more than brand new Veritas routers. Augur bits (inevitably with wings snapped off). And not really a tool but OMG what people try and sell slabs for...

Hand saws in the latter category and for really very little comparatively on ebay/FB marketplace. Frequently see for < $20 in decent shape. Particularly packs of 3-4 in what are likely estate sales. They will be covered in rust but few things are easier to clean up than a saw plate either with abrasives or a de-rusting solution or electrolysis.

Originally Posted by LanceC

Oh dear, as if it weren't embarrassing enough having to admit I lost some saws, the Ians' suggestion of a large tenon saw reminded me that I have one of those, and having just checked, would have been large enough! Gah! In my defence though, my three backsaws sit under my bench mostly out of sight. Because the largest hardly gets used, I just reached for the mid sized one when initially trying to cut the joint, forgetting that Pappa Bear was waiting just a little further to the right. I don't look for the saw, just stick my hand under the bench and grab the one I have in mind. Also, this isn't just any saw, it's the venerable Maatsuyker #11976-4324. How could I have forgotten it?

Attachment 509855 Attachment 509856

Regardless, the decision has been made to search out some nice second hand saws.


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I had initially considered a pair of 22" (ish) panel saws as they're smaller and I would guess more commonly used at a bench. Could you expand on the need for two sizes? Is it more to do with the larger saws having a lower TPI, or a longer stroke for longer cuts?



[/COLOR]This is really useful for evaluating a saw when in my hands.

For those who don't venture beyond the hand tools section of these forums, I posted the completed table in the "Big Stuff" section at A console cabinet for two (woodworkforums.com).

I found this Craftsman recently with a lot less rust than the old Disston's. I'm very glad I took the time to clean and sharpen it. It had almost no set when I got it, I assume that's how they came from the factory. After setting, stoning the the sides of the teeth and sharpening, it's amazing. I never checked to see if it's tapered.

My wife and I went for a drive yesterday for lunch, and on the way popped into an antique dealer to see what was about, and walked out with some saws.

20220620_154133.jpg

Whilst there were a bunch of saws, these caught my interest. The Disston because it looked like a nice D8, the other one because it had a nib and may be a nice bit of history. Whilst I don't need another backsaw, it was planned as a gift. At $14, $10 and $27 respectively, it was worth the punt. They all had a good set of teeth, so only needing a solid sharpen rather than filing in new ones.

I gave them a cursory clean today to see what I had and was pleasantly surprised.

The Disston has a lovely clear etch and a clean plate.

20220621_180356.jpg

The old 'un has a stamp, not etch, so a little older, and marked John Sanderson. It appears to be around mid 19th century from my limited research. The handle will need some repairs and a couple of extra nuts.

20220621_180321.jpg 20220621_180328.jpg

And finally the backsaw. WM Sykes & Co. This one's a bit of a mystery as the name seems to date from the 19th century too, but the handle looks far more modern. It's a lovely feeling saw though, so it may end up not being passed on as a gift after all.

20220621_180222.jpg

Given the stamp and etch on the handsaws, I didn't go too far with the clean-up, as I would like to read Paul's (Bushmiller) post on restoration and take it slowly, lest I overdo either.

Anyway, some good projects for the coming evenings.

Lance is the “lovely Wife” now “knowing” what too look for, when you just happen to be out an about on a day trip.

I was going to use the word trained, but then had a self reflection moment considering Sal can spot a Saw or Plane, that i “might” happen too like before I’ve even walked in the door.

I of course have know idea how, why she has this superb skill set but I’m very glad she comes with it, must be just a woman’s thing.

Cheers Matt.

Originally Posted by LanceC

.... And finally the backsaw. WM Sykes & Co. This one's a bit of a mystery as the name seems to date from the 19th century too, but the handle looks far more modern.....

Hmmm, the handle looks very post-WW2 for sure, Lance. But it looks like a very good fit and the saw plate & spine look to me to be in far too good condition to be +/- 150 yrs old! You will get a clue when you take the handle off for cleaning, if there are no extra holes in the plate you can be fairly confident that's the original handle. I suspect further research might indicate the brand name lasted much longer than 1900, but whatever the case, if it turns out to be a good user, age is immaterial...

Going to be a struggle to find a matching medallion for the Sanderson, I think. If you can't find something suitable of a matching vintage, I could make you a pseudo-medallion and you could have your initials engraved on it or something:

personalised.jpg

Cheers,
Ian

Originally Posted by IanW

Hmmm, the handle looks very post-WW2 for sure, Lance. But it looks like a very good fit and the saw plate & spine look to me to be in far too good condition to be +/- 150 yrs old! You will get a clue when you take the handle off for cleaning...

I took the handle of the tenon saw off today, with a lot of effort. I really struggled to remove the nuts as the other side rotated with it all. In the end, I discovered that they weren't nuts at all, rather just press fit rivets, with one slotted side to give the appearance of something older. At this stage I would imagine that the handle is original. The back and saw plate are in really good condition, so will make a nicer handle for it and add it to my collection. I will try and replicate the hang angle of the handle though, as it's really comfortable as is.

Originally Posted by IanW

Going to be a struggle to find a matching medallion for the Sanderson, I think. If you can't find something suitable of a matching vintage, I could make you a pseudo-medallion and you could have your initials engraved on it or something ...

I was wondering what to do about that, and that's a really good idea. I've got a jar of old saw nuts here somewhere, and hoping some of which can be re-purposed. I had a brief look today, but will investigate more tomorrow to see if I can find them. I am worried that the jar was inadvertently discarded in a clean up.

I must confess to the heresy of using a modern Bahco laminate saw (12tpi) as a panel saw - I find it works very well for me.

Originally Posted by LanceC

I took the handle of the tenon saw off today, with a lot of effort. I really struggled to remove the nuts as the other side rotated with it all. In the end, I discovered that they weren't nuts at all, rather just press fit rivets, with one slotted side to give the appearance of something older. At this stage I would imagine that the handle is original. The back and saw plate are in really good condition, so will make a nicer handle for it and add it to my collection. I will try and replicate the hang angle of the handle though, as it's really comfortable as is.

Lance

That presents something of a conundrum. According to Barley, Wm. Sykes operated from 1786 to 1823! Firstly, as Ian said, the handle is considerably more modern and from the operating dates of Sykes would have had split nuts. Secondly those rivets are from a much more modern time (70s & 80s?).



There is no reason why it could not become a user.

The Sanderson name had a number of collaborations. However, with "John Sanderson" by itself, again according to Simon Barley, production finished in 1852. Sanderson and Newbold, for example, continued for more than another hundred years after this, but John Sanderson was thought to be different and no connection. The stamping is certainly in keeping with the early era as is the nib.

Regards
Paul

It took longer than it should have, but the Disston has been up and running for several weeks now after a bit of TLC on the handle, with a nice deep jointing followed by a sharpen.

Originally Posted by IanW

I predict you'll find so many jobs for them in coming years you'll wonder how you ever got along without them.

Whilst I hold your advice in great esteem Ian, I must admit to smiling politely at this comment, and being somewhat skeptical. I'm here to repent though and just say WOW!

Having judged the usefulness of hand saws based on a $15 hardware version was so wrong. Other than looking rather similar they are vastly different tools. The accuracy and speed with which I can cut opens up am entirely new range of uses for a hand saw.

Here's an example. If I need to trim 10 mm or so from the long edge of some stock, I would generally either set the plane for a heavy cut and go at it, or head over to the table saw. Now though, I find it simpler to just saw down 0.5 mm from the final dimension and clean up with several swipes of the plane. Fast and efficient. I must admit to being really surprised the first time I tried it just how well it worked. Having now done this a dozen or so times, it is the new go-to method for me.

Here's a 400 mm cut from the weekend. There's only a 0.05 mm variance along the length.



I guess in hindsight I should be less surprised having had a similar revelation with back saws. I guess on this occasion however, I had already learned to cut straight, so my abilities allowed me to get more from the saw.

So thanks all for the advice. I think the are more saws in my future.