Thread: Tool for flute making

Originally Posted by liolor

dear Sirs,

I'm interested in recorder (flute) making and for this I would need a curved tool like the one in the attached pictures. It's a traditional hand-tool, like a scraper used to scrape the recorder winday. It looks like a broach (it's not a file, it has teeth), it cuts by pulling and not by pushing and it has a curved section. Maybe you have an idea how to make this, or even some of you could make it ...thank you very much for any help you could give me. Greetings from Italy

Lorenzo

Hello Lorenzo,
in most English speaking places these are known as "floats"
They are used in cabinet-making, and especially in wooden hand plane making, where some of the techniques in making are similar to musical instrument making.
I have used unhardened 01 tool steel with good results. It can be bent, sawn and filed easily. Then, if you wish it can be hardened. However, that would make sharpening more difficult with most home workshop tools.
Here is a picture of some floats
Planemaking floats on 52.5 degree jointer plane - Handplane Central: Planemaker Gallery

Regards,
Peter
In Melbourne, Australia

Dear Peter,

thank you for you answer. The floats are indeed very similar to what i'm looking for. From what i've seen the teeth of the float are often flat, while I would need something with a small curvature of the teeth edge. I've seen your website and the many beautiful jewels and tools you make. If you want and have time, I would be happy if you could make such a tool for me, I could send you some measures, and of course pay your work..many greetings

Lorenzo

Originally Posted by liolor

Dear Peter,

thank you for you answer. The floats are indeed very similar to what i'm looking for. From what i've seen the teeth of the float are often flat, while I would need something with a small curvature of the teeth edge. I've seen your website and the many beautiful jewels and tools you make. If you want and have time, I would be happy if you could make such a tool for me, I could send you some measures, and of course pay your work..many greetings

Lorenzo

Lorenzo,
at this time my jewellery making is busy, and also I have many of my own hobby projects that I can't find time to finish.
I prefer to keep any tool making for my own entertainment, and not a commercial activity.
I can't help you with making any tools.

Regards,
Peter

Liolor - would these do the job? They cut fast , and leave great finish

IWASAKI Carving Files

Hi Lorenzo. It might seem a bit daunting when you first consider it, but making a tool like you show should not be too difficult for anyone with the skills to make instruments. You would not need any special metal-working equipment, as you can probably buy a short length of suitable steel from any place that sells metal to hobbyists, so there would be little or no cutting involved. The most difficult part for me would be making the curve accurately. Laying out & filing the teeth would need to be done with care, but is more tedious than technical.

Are there no technical colleges or similar places near you where you could enrol for a while to learn a bit of metal-working? I know life is short & very busy, but being able to make & modify the tools of your hobby is very useful, & very satisfying.

Couple of questions for Peter (Lightwood):

If you are not going to harden the tool at all, are there be any advantages in using O1 rather than a bit of easily-obtainable mild steel, or bright steel? I've worked a bit of O1 in its dead-soft state, & it seems to me that it's just as soft as mild steel, but perhaps there are other reasons beside hardness?

If you did use O1, it should it be possible to harden a piece that size using a couple of gas torches for a heat source. Would it temper back to around R48-50 (hard, but still file-able) in a domestic oven at max. setting, and how much time would you think it would need?

I'm asking 'cos I have a couple of small projects in mind, and tempering has always been my weak point, due to my colour-blindness - just don't see "straw" or any of those fancy shades. So I need a "set & forget" method for reducing hardness...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

Hi Lorenzo. It might seem a bit daunting when you first consider it, but making a tool like you show should not be too difficult for anyone with the skills to make instruments. You would not need any special metal-working equipment, as you can probably buy a short length of suitable steel from any place that sells metal to hobbyists, so there would be little or no cutting involved. The most difficult part for me would be making the curve accurately. Laying out & filing the teeth would need to be done with care, but is more tedious than technical.

Are there no technical colleges or similar places near you where you could enrol for a while to learn a bit of metal-working? I know life is short & very busy, but being able to make & modify the tools of your hobby is very useful, & very satisfying.

Couple of questions for Peter (Lightwood):

If you are not going to harden the tool at all, are there be any advantages in using O1 rather than a bit of easily-obtainable mild steel, or bright steel? I've worked a bit of O1 in its dead-soft state, & it seems to me that it's just as soft as mild steel, but perhaps there are other reasons beside hardness?

If you did use O1, it should it be possible to harden a piece that size using a couple of gas torches for a heat source. Would it temper back to around R48-50 (hard, but still file-able) in a domestic oven at max. setting, and how much time would you think it would need?

I'm asking 'cos I have a couple of small projects in mind, and tempering has always been my weak point, due to my colour-blindness - just don't see "straw" or any of those fancy shades. So I need a "set & forget" method for reducing hardness...

Cheers,

Ian,
The untreated O1 steel I have is easily able to scratch the mild steel I have. The mild steel doesn't come near scratching the O1.
I find the mild steel drags, and clogs a file more than the O1. Although there are technique solutions to that problem, I know novice metal workers find the mild steel unrewarding. Getting a crisp, sharp edge with a file in O1 is easier than mild steel. That's not to say it is impossible in mild steel, and wouldn't make a decent float.
I believe making a float like the one needed is a relatively simple process, and wouldn't take more than a two hours, thee at the most.
I have taught 12 apprentices to make jewellery, and I should correct that to what I think is a much more important thing, I have taught them to "learn how to learn how to make things."
When I see the immediate rejection of that idea....I loose interest quickly.
The making of tool of this type is VERY basic metal work, and as you said, the techniques learned are applicable to many other hand working processes.
My usual advice is to stop typing and start sawing and filing.

The tempering of O1 to 55/56 RC is 1 hour at 350 degC. I don't know what temp you need for softer, I would need to look it up. But even at 350 you are already past yellow, past brown, and purple and getting out of the blue into the dark grey.
http://www.m4040.com/Knifemaking/PIC...owChart-sm.gif
Can you see anything helpful on that chart, or does your colour blindness cut them all out?
I think there are some melting crayons that show these temps...I will look that up and get back to you.

Regards,
Peter

Ian,
here we go
steel temperature indicating crayons...
Temp Sticks, Temperature Sticks, Welding Temperature Sticks, Temperature Indicating Crayons, Welding Temp Sticks, Welding Crayons, Temperature Indicator, Temperature Crayons India, India

Heat treating with Tempilstik temperature indicating crayons

This type of thing is available locally from Blackwoods. Not certain of the brand, I have one a friend gave me, but no label to see the brand.

Here is clown showing their use...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPe6rBPOnx0"]Temperature Crayons - Metalworking Tips from TM Tech - YouTube[/ame]


Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter - thanks very much for that info & the 'glow chart'. While I can see a difference betwen the colours on the chart, my eyes (or brain!) just don't interpret colours properly in isolation, particularly paler shades, so it is a very unreliable method for me. I knew about the crayons, but didn't know where to get them (didn't even think of trying Blackwoods), so that is very useful info for the future.

I just checked our oven, and it goes to 275 degrees C, so it would take a fair while to bring fully hardened O1 back to a fileable state. It might be worth trying for some jobs, if I can sneak the power bills past the minister for War & Finance!

I had a feeling that you would remind me of the poor machinability of mild steel, and I heartily agree - it is not designed for ease of filing. I was made very aware of that fact when makng my infill plane, and that's why I mentioned bright steel (which I believe is pretty similar to O1 in workability?)

Anyway, many thanks for your help!
Cheers,

Dear Lorenzo,

I do a lot of recorder playing and have a couple of friends who have made recorders. In fact, I have a machine made by one of these friends in my workshop for cutting the windway in the top of the head joint. In this case, it cuts a straight channel. I might be wrong, but I understood that the curve in a curved wind way is along the top of the block rather than along the top joint. There is an interesting web site by Philippe Bolton, a French maker, showing a picture of a section of a wind way and also some information about making recorders. There is a photograph of him working on the wind way with what looks like a straight chisel.

I have not met this person but he has visited Australia I believe and one of my friends has worked with him. I feel sure he would be willing to answer questions.

Good luck,
Tony

Dear all, thank you for your advices! I think i will try indeed to make one myself. The most hard part would be probably to obtain the curved surface. Maybe some steel bar can be obtained with curvature, i'll look for it.

@Tonyw, interesting! I know Bolton website, and i tried to make some blocks following his method and it came out nicely. Do you also make reamers yourself? With this I succeded after learning how to use metal lathe, and i made reamers for a Stanesby senior recorder following Morgan's measurements. Maybe you have a picture of your machine?. As far as I know also the windaway to has to be curved. I would like to learn to make the windway by hand, without machine. Another interesting tools is the crossing-file. It has two different curvatures on the sides, and the less curved looks like to be good for recorder. Before you have of course to modify the file, cut away the tip and make the sides parallel.
I send you pictures of my reamers, 4 for the body section....do you know these articles:
Hand Tools for Recorder Making
Recorder Making

Hi Liolor

the tool you posted looks very much like a gunsmith's float -- used to shape different parts of a gun stock

sorry, but I don't know if they are available commercially

Hi Liolor
Liogier will make them for you if they don't already make them. They are very helpful when it comes to making new tools. As for Noel.
Liogier, hand cut rasp and rifflers

Originally Posted by liolor

@Tonyw, interesting! I know Bolton website, and i tried to make some blocks following his method and it came out nicely. Do you also make reamers yourself? With this I succeded after learning how to use metal lathe, and i made reamers for a Stanesby senior recorder following Morgan's measurements. Maybe you have a picture of your machine?. As far as I know also the windaway to has to be curved. I would like to learn to make the windway by hand, without machine. Another interesting tools is the crossing-file. It has two different curvatures on the sides, and the less curved looks like to be good for recorder. Before you have of course to modify the file, cut away the tip and make the sides parallel.
I send you pictures of my reamers, 4 for the body section....do you know these articles:
Hand Tools for Recorder Making
Recorder Making

Dear Lorenzo,
I gave you the wrong impression. I am a recorder player but, unfortunately, not a maker. It was for a long time one of my ambitions but other things always intervened.

The second web reference you quote is from David Tredenick, who owns the windway cutter that I have and it is according to the drawing on his web page. He has since left Australia and moved to Canada and as far as I know is not making recorders.

I was wrong about the curvature. I see from the references that the roof of the windway is curved.

Do you play as well as make recorders?

Cheers,
Tony

In the meantime I bought this old float:...

Gunsmith File or Float (Tools) at Great Expectations Antiques

the curvature is good and it has teeth in both directions...I just have to make the toothed part narrower with a band grinder.

Any idea how to sharpen the teeth? thank you

Lorenzo