Thread: Saw tooth gullets.

Stewie

That's most interesting as it flies in the face of justification for a rip profile for ripping. If you get the time I would be interested to see how that works with a softwood. I appreciate that it would mean re-filing back to rip again and I wouldn't wish that on anybody. The change in rake is time consuming and file consuming for that matter.

Just recently I used a coarse crosscut saw (4.5ppi, it's a "docking" saw) to cut some soft wood pallet material. Although it was quite quick, I thought it was unsuited to the job, although when I first performed my test cuts on an old hardwood Ironbark fence post it performed admirably. It just goes to show that different timbers may well require different saws to maximise cutting speed or other aspects of performance. I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that speed (like size ) is not everything.

Having said all that, your test is revealing. Thank you.

Regards
Paul

Stewie,
Thanks for taking the time to post any chance of some close up shots of the gullets.
There may be some members here who are new to all this saw stuff.

Cheers Matt

Stewie, I don't doubt the difference in performance of the saw, but I think the explanation must lie in something other than gullet capacity. I can't see an edge of your test board, but I judge it to be around an inch thick? Even if it's 2 inches thick, I would not expect gullets to be over-filling at 7tpi, in dry, hard wood, whatever the tooth pattern.

You've certainly made an interesting demonstration of something, I just doubt it's due to a difference in gullet size. I'd hypothesise it's more likely the change in tooth-tip configuration that sped things up ??

Cheers

Identifying the manufacturer of this saw is going to be a tall order. The medallion is Warranted Superior with an (Eagle inside an enclosed circle of stars). That suggests its a USA saw maker. I have only come across 1 example that matches this same medallions details, and that was on a Jackson/Disston backsaw. (of smaller in dia) The etch is in quite poor condition, but I can clearly see the word OUR in capital letters on the top line , followed by Warranted Superior, and latin insignia, Cast Steel, on a lower tier surrounded within a ribbon border. I seem to recall seeing a similar etch a few years ago while researching the internet on early saw makers, and my recollection suggests the top line should read something like OUR VERY BEST. The handle itself is rather unusual in shape, suggesting its of an early date, with the possibility some minor reshaping has occurred in more recent years between top horn and the reverse beak.

Stewie;

Stewie

"Our Very Best," sometimes shortened to "OVB," was a catch phrase used by Hibbard Spencer and Bartlett, who were a hardware company in Chicago from 1882 - 1983. Reputedly both Atkins and Disston produced saws for them, but this is unsubstantiated.

Hibbard Spencer Bartlet OVB.jpg

Assuming it is a 26" hand saw, it could be the No.50 at the top of the page:

Hibbard Spencer Bartlet handsaws.jpg

Regards
Paul

Paul; your an absolute champion on recall. The N0.50 Cruso looks like its a perfect match . Do you have a date listing on that HSB and Co Catalogue.

regards Stewie;

Originally Posted by IanW

Stewie, I don't doubt the difference in performance of the saw, but I think the explanation must lie in something other than gullet capacity. I can't see an edge of your test board, but I judge it to be around an inch thick? Even if it's 2 inches thick, I would not expect gullets to be over-filling at 7tpi, in dry, hard wood, whatever the tooth pattern.

It should be possible to model if the sawdust is filling the gullets. ie is, 20 strokes x number of teeth per stroke X volume of one gullet X sawdust expansion factor > volume of kerf cut.
The hard bit is determining the sawdust expansion factor but starting with around a factor of ~2 might give some idea of whether you are close or not.
Somehow I doubt it would fill.

I think it might be more along the lines of sharp points versus sharp chisels. A more definitive test has to involve longevity of any cutting system. So maybe trying 1000 strokes and see what happens.

A similar thing happens with Chainsaw milling where a particularly pointy edged chain cutter called a "full chisel" cuts likes speed demon for half a slab and then it gents blunt quickly and cuts the second half of a slab much slower. In contrast a cutter known as a semi-chisel does not rely as much on a point but the full width of the cutter so may not be quite as fast initially but also does not go blunt as quickly.

Paul; I tracked down a date on that Catalogue. (1922) https://www.google.com/search?q=hibb...m7VMGjiZMGufM:

HSB & Co. 1891 Catalogue. https://archive.org/details/HibbardS...GeneralCatalog

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

"Our Very Best," sometimes shortened to "OVB," was a catch phrase used by Hibbard Spencer and Bartlett, who were a hardware company in Chicago from 1882 - 1983. Reputedly both Atkins and Disston produced saws for them, but this is unsubstantiated.

Assuming it is a 26" hand saw, it could be the No.50 at the top of the page:

Hibbard Spencer Bartlet handsaws.jpg

Hi Paul
of those saws both the No.50 and No.86 have straight backs.
But Stewie's saw has a nib, and I can't see any nibs in those illustrations.

AND, in that extract, saws are described as "hand" and "rip".
I'm guessing that "rip" is self explanatory, but "hand"?
Is it an alternate term for "Cross-cut" or something else?

It's certainly an interesting result, but I'm also a bit reluctant to attribute it wholly to gullet size/shape. That would effectively debunk everything we've always accepted as truth about saw teeth, and make the rip pattern all but obsolete.

Nonetheless, it's something to think about. Thanks for the demo, Stewie.

Originally Posted by planemaker

Paul; I tracked down a date on that Catalogue. (1922) https://www.google.com/search?q=hibb...m7VMGjiZMGufM:

Thanks Stewie

When I downloaded that catalogue a year or two back I somehow missed off the date so your find is helpful. Thank you also for the link to the 1891 catalogue. In perusing the index of the 1922 catalogue, looking to see on which page the hand saws might be, I noticed that they also sold hand cuffs. My degenerate mind set me looking for those too, but unfortunately this offering is only an exerpt and does not stretch to page 1125.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by ian

Hi Paul
of those saws both the No.50 and No.86 have straight backs.
But Stewie's saw has a nib, and I can't see any nibs in those illustrations.

AND, in that extract, saws are described as "hand" and "rip".
I'm guessing that "rip" is self explanatory, but "hand"?
Is it an alternate term for "Cross-cut" or something else?

Ian

The No.80 has a different saw screw pattern so I discounted that and I had not picked up on the absence of a nib. It was late at night and after a night at the local tavern my sleuthing abilities may have been somewhat diminished . The nib possibly points to an earlier era again as by 1922 the nib was rarely seen, although I think Disston retained it until their rationalisation, 1927, but only on their No.7. Having said that, the No.50 in the 1891 catalogue linked by Stewie does not show a nib or bead either so I may not have it right. There could well be another model that was current in between these years.

There was a tendency in those times to distinguish between hand, rip and panel saws. The manufacturer's catalogues often showed a picture of all three:

Simonds 1912 cat No.10.jpg

However, today we would more likely describe all those saws as hand saws. Back in the day it was common for it to be assumed that rip saws were 26" or longer, but I have certainly seen Disston debunk that pointing out that rip saws could be shorter. Panel saws were generally regarded to be 24" or less in length and in the example above you can see distinctions with both panel saws and rip saws. Most of the Simonds rip saws I have are only 26". In fact to easily use the larger saws to their maximum potential you have to be a bigger person.

Normally the panel saws, as well as being a thinner gauge of saw plate than the handsaw (28" rip saws were a thicker gauge again) would have one less saw screw than the hand saw.

I hope that helps. The old descriptions are confusing.

Regards
Paul

A replacement handle for this saw is underway.