Thread: Towards to perfect dovetail/small tenon saw tote

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Of course, when you factor in that it took me a whole day to shape the replacement tote, then a good custom saw is really quite cheap at the price.

I haven't seen a 'custom' saw that came with the satisfaction of making it - they usually leave that on the premises.

Derek, that is a very nice handle design. I also have a LN Independence and, like yourself, Steve and others, respect its design and effectiveness. To improve on the handle is quite an achievement, well done!

You know something? It may be about time you sent one of YOUR tools off to be reviewed



(kick it to me! kick it to me!)

Good idea, Groggy.

Derek, you do know that Fine Woodworking magazine is looking for submissions of non-professional toolmakers to send in pictures etc. of tools they have made?

They'll be in the next annual Tools & Shops issue [or whatever they call it...]

Take care, Mike

Inspiring work Derek......................My efforts have been relegated to sanding blocks to get that perfect fit into the Hand (Using rasps to shape) Now I have a future project to aim for.

Nothing like getting that perfect fit into the Mits....................particularly with a nice Handtool

Great Post!

REGards Lou

Hi Derek,

That's really nice work on the tote. I've just bought some old tenon saws and am refurbishing a couple of old saws dad passed on to me, there's at least one handle in that lot. So, it's good to know what you're thinking design wise.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Of course, when you factor in that it took me a whole day to shape the replacement tote, then a good custom saw is really quite cheap at the price.
Derek

Derek,
Yeah - took me about as long to do the first tote I ever tried (and it didn't turn out nearly as well as yours, partly because I was working off a picture!).
But I can easily do a decent tote in an hour, these days, so it makes a cheap saw more of a bargain. Did a replacement of a very similar handle to the original you showed on a new saw for a friend, last year. They really are a POS, and as uncomfortable to hold, as they are ugly to behold.

Couldn't agree more that the LN handle looks a bit under-done considering the price and reputation. I have an old pre-WW2 brass-backed saw (can't remember the brand at the moment) which has a beautifully-shaped (Beech) handle along similar lines to the one you made (this design has been around for at least 200 yrs, - there's an almost identical pattern on one of Duncan Phyfe's saws, which is the picture I worked from for my first try). I would imagine that in the '30s, they would have roughed the handles out by some machine work, and had someone finishing them with rasps and scrapers, since there is no way a rotary cutter can match the varying curves on the grip. Wonder how many minutes it took for someone doing it on piecework rates to bang out a decent handle like the one on my saw??

I'm about to "make" a new saw myself, but am cheating a bit. I have a half-decent blade with a very shoddy pressed steel (ultra-light gauge!) back. I was going to do the brass back by bending it, as advocated by some, but I have a friend who works in a metal w'shop with a selection of fine slotting saws, so think I'll cheat some more and have him slot the brass.
I'll post it when done, but am currently setting out my new shed (hallelujah!!!) so it is down the 'to-do' list a ways, yet.......

Derek -

That is one beautiful-looking saw.

I have saws with both squared and rounded handles and you're so right about the improved comfort of a properly rounded tote.

By the way, did you ever end up making that wooden-backed saw?

Cheers - a virtual greenie for your efforts.
GW

By the way, did you ever end up making that wooden-backed saw?

Hi GW

No, I now plan to make a couple of brass backed saws instead. I will post on them in the future.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek I notest in your first post that you have a LN indeoendence dovetale saw just wondering what your thorts are on this saw haveing never used one myself I am looking to bye one my self

The LN Independence dovetail saw is excellent, but there are "Buts".

This saw is 9" long and filed 15 tpi rip (because cutting a dovetail involves a rip cut), and it will produce a fine kerf in this situation. However .. the teeth are filed quite aggressively (very upright) and this makes the saw harder to start than most. It requires a little technique to get used to it, but once you do you will love the saw. It cuts straight and fast. It is comfortable (not as much as my crosscut above ) and it is a great looker.

Just don't consider this saw for crosscutting, as in tenon shoulders. It is not good enough here. The softer the wood, the worse the performance (On the other hand one can use a crosscut saw in a ripping - dovetailing - situation. It just takes more time)

In the past I have posted pictures of kerfs cut by dovetail saws. I do not recall any images of the kerfs cut by crosscut saws. So I took a few for comparison.

Left to right: Nurse 14" Xcut, Disston #5 12" Xcut, S&J 10" Xcut, LN Independence Dovetail rip

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Crosscuts.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

The wood on the top is Karri, which is shortgrained and very hard. On the bottom is Pawton, a soft wood similar to Balsa.

The Karri was easiest to cut. All crosscut saws cut smoothly. The LN rip caught the wood fibres and was harder to start. It left a furry kerf, whereas the others were fairly smooth.

On the soft wood the rip caught the fibres even more, and the furriness was even more apparent.

Regarding the rehabbed S&J crosscut saw, I have not yet resharpened it and it still outcut the LN. Once I touch it up it will do even better.

Here are the other saws (From Nurse, Disston #5, LN Independence, John Cotterill, Crown):

<center> <div><img src="http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Backsaws1.jpg" border="0" alt="" /> <br /></center>

Regards from Perth

Derek

I have a half-decent blade with a very shoddy pressed steel (ultra-light gauge!) back. I was going to do the brass back by bending it, as advocated by some, but I have a friend who works in a metal w'shop with a selection of fine slotting saws, so think I'll cheat some more and have him slot the brass.

Hi Ian

I am going to try my hand at bending the brass. I am going to cheat a little as well. I noticed that Bunnings sell lengths of angle brass section (in different widths). Basically it is half bent already - just needs a little persuading to go the other half .

You should have a look at this recent thread on the Oldtools forum:
http://denali.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu:...read=1#message

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek, inquire as to whether it is half-hard brass. Should be 260 Navel brass. Full-hard can over stress at the bend and if not break right away, may well do so down the road.

Take care, Mike

Hi Derek - Couldn't open the page you posted, but will try later.

The reason I decided to get my brass slotted was just wot Mike said - it's pretty hard to bend most of the commercial brass without heating. I made up a few sets of brass hinges for a special project a while ago, and quickly re-discovered it was impossible to cold-bend 3mm brass plate past 90 deg. without serious cracking, but a little heat and it was no sweat. I don't have a very good heat source (a slightly asthmatic propane torch) so wasn't confident I could heat a big chunk enough, hence the appeal of the slotting saw approach. It does look a bit precious, I must admit - probably just too accustomed to seeing the bent type of back, I suppose.

The angle-brass is a good thought, as it usually survives the first 90 degrees.
I imagine if you had a decent heat source, you could anneal your brass angle before you start, and then complete the bend with no problems. Is that so, Mike??

I noticed the Bunnies where I go (under duress!) carries a selection of brass, but the price was staggering, compared with the wholesaler where I normally get my brass. However, it's a cut-lunch and full waterbag sort of trip to the brass place, and they're not open Saturdays, so it's probably better to grit my teeth at the few extra dollars for the Bunnies brass - the saving in petrol $$s will more than compensate!

Happy saw-making.

Hi Ian,

I use half-hard brass. Generally I purchase it in sheets 12" x 24" and cut the back stock off it using a small bandsaw. Generally in 1 5/8" wide strips. Using a press and die blocks, the brass is bent past 45 degrees, probably closer to 30 or 35.

I then use the press and steel against a 1 1/2" thick steel plate to press it nearly closed. From there, I use another steel plate on my bench to hammer it a little more than closed, though it really is just closed at the bottom portion. The bend combined with over-pressing is what forms the tenacious grip against the saw plate.

The bending is done totally cold.

I'll go take a couple pics and be right back...

Ok. First picture is a close-up which was a tad shaky. But it shows how far the die allows the brass to be bent and the result after the hammer. The first 3rd is fairly closed and will have half the depth of the brass in firm contact with the saw plate once installed. To the laft of the roll of blue tape is a slotted back. I am slotting a little over 1/4" into is. This is the interference fit from Derek's link. The kerf is a thou or so less than the saw plate. Once on, I cannot move it very easily.



And here is the entire picture with folded brass on a saw being built today:



Take care, Mike

Thanks, Mike.

One last question - what thickness brass sheet are you using for the backs - 1/8" ??

Next time I go to the brass place, will ask if they have half-hard stock - will be useful for the future. We don't get quite as wide a choice of raw materials over here that you enjoy in your part of the world.

Interesting handle on the saw in progress, btw - haven't seen thumb grooves on backsaws before, but why not? Totes like yours just ask to be picked up and used!

Cheers,