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Thread: Unknown Older Disston
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8th July 2019, 11:08 AM #1Senior Member
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Unknown Older Disston
Hello,
I picked this up a while ago and just got a chance to take a look at it. I'm pretty sure it's a Disston, but the etch is gone, so not sure of the number. It used to have a nib and lamb's tongue. The medallion dates it 1876-77. There is no ppi mark, but it's 8 ppi and measures 26".
With the handle removed, there's a number stamped into the top corner, I think it's either a "3" or "8". The underside of the medallion has a definite copper color, not yellowish like brass (the photo doesn't show it very well).
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Dave
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8th July 2019, 11:13 AM #2
Model? 8 or 12 (without wheat?) I think. I have seen that diamond shaped indentation on saws in my collection, I think they may be a kind of hardness test.
Innovations are those useful things that, by dint of chance, manage to survive the stupidity and destructive tendencies inherent in human nature.
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8th July 2019, 11:52 AM #3
Dave
That's an interesting one. The only real difference between the No.7 and the No.8, both of which had lambs tongues at various times, was the Beech handle on the former and Apple handle on the latter. The medallion style would place it 1888 -1896. Two slight anomalies with the medallion if I am reading the pix correctly, which might not be the case: Firstly, there does not appear to be a patent date. Secondly, the stars appear to be the uncommon six pointers instead of the normal five point. The Disstonian Institute mentions this in particular.
Something that comes to mind as I type is that I am assuming the saw does not have split nuts as the medallion stem looks reasonably thick and robust and the medallion style fits the 1888-1896 era. If it did have split nuts, that would account for the lack of patent date and place the saw significantly older but post 1871 when the company name was changed to H.Disston and Sons (sons plural). The other possibility is that the patent date is there but just not easily visible.
A check on the handle wood will establish whether it is a No.7 or a No.8.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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8th July 2019, 12:20 PM #4Senior Member
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Paul,
Yes, the medallion does have the 6 point star, but definitely no patent date (no split nuts either).
The handle has been painted red, but there are parts where the paint has worn off. I'm not a wood expert -- not sure on how to tell beech from apple.
Thanks,
Dave
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8th July 2019, 04:06 PM #5
Dave
Apple is a rather plain timber normally with little or no feature. It was chosen for it's ease of working and stability characteristics. Beech on the other hand has reasonably prominent medullary rays, which show up as many elongated darker shapes on the back sawn face (the quartersawn face tends to produce larger shadow patches). With handsaws these features are often best seen on the outside of the grip.
I didn't think I had a comparison of Disston saws so I picked out a Simonds No.9 (Apple) and a Simonds No.10 (Beech). In the early days up to 1907 these saws were identical except for the timber used in the handle. These two are from the earliest period, featuring the Crescent Moon and Star medallion, which dates them 1900 to 1904.
P1050166 (Medium).JPGP1050167 (Medium).JPG
Some close ups show the difference in grain. First the Apple, then Beech and the two together with the Beech on the right:
P1050169 (Medium).JPGP1050170 (Medium).JPGP1050171 (Medium).JPG
Then on a whim I looked through the rack of miscellaneous Disstons and there was a very close relative to your saw .
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It is a No.7, albeit a rather ratty specimen whose only redeeming feature is that it is nearly full width. The model number "7" I could see with the naked eye just below the keystone, but is not really visible in the pic so I'm afraid you may have to take my word for it.
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It even has the same broken handle, but no medallion . Just a mongrel bolt!
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I very quickly ( about two minutes worth of sanding) cleaned up enough of the handle to show the grain. I also cut a slice off the bottom of the grip and sanded that too as this handle is just junk. Perhaps you can see the slim elongated flecks I mentioned earlier. You can see them going the opposite way to the grain in this pic.
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and evident in the end grain
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The remnant of the lambs tongue
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Just in passing I should mention that British saws used Beech almost exclusively, but the British grown Beech seems to have more pronounced rays and often an additional fleck that does not show up in the American species. By the way, all timber has medullary rays, which run from the heart outwards towards the bark. However, in most species they are invisible to the naked eye. Another species where you will see the rays is Oak. In Australia we have a number of species whose common names are "Oak" of some description but they are not "true" Oaks as in the Quercus species which includes your American Oak. This is a Robert Sorby panel saw showing that extra fleck:
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This pic below demonstrates the difference between backsawn and quartersawn medullary rays. The butcher's steel handle is from the quartersawn face in the view shown, but the side piece it is sitting in is the backsawn face. This wood is an extreme example of the rays. The timber is either Hairy Oak or Bull Oak (they are similar and I can never distinguish), but is a Casuarina species.
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More information on those species here:
Casuarina identification. Hairy Oak/Bull Oak
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I hope that might assist in identifying your saw. Apologies for the digressions. I got a bit carried aray.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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9th July 2019, 01:48 AM #6Senior Member
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Paul,
Thanks so much for the post! Please disregard the request for photos -- got a little crazy with the clicking
I sanded down the bottom of the broken handle and took a few photos. Sometimes I think I can see the rays, and sometimes I can't.
I'll sand the grip a bit and post photos of those as well.
Regards,
Dave
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9th July 2019, 02:06 AM #7Senior Member
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As promised...
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9th July 2019, 03:13 AM #8
Thanks for the pix Dave.
I couldn't tell from the first batch, but in the second group it looks like Beech to me. See if others agree. If that is the case I'd have to go with a No.7. The 6 point star and the lack of patent set it apart.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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9th July 2019, 09:23 AM #9
+1 for Beech. Rays are faint, but visible. They can be fine on both European & American Beech.
That old handle is eminently repairable if you are inclined to try it. The long-grain joins should be sound so it would be useable, not just cosmetic. An old wooden plane body that's beyond repair could provide enough Beech to fill in the missing bit. I'd probably just tidy up the chip on the top horn & not try to eliminate it, it would just make it more obvious in the short term.
If nothing else, it would provide an afternoon of pleasant pottering....
Cheers,IW
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9th July 2019, 10:44 AM #10Senior Member
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Paul,
Thanks for the assistance.
Regards,
Dave
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9th July 2019, 10:47 AM #11Senior Member
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I've refinished handles before, but have never attempted a rebuild. Any tutorials you could recommend?
Regards,
Dave
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9th July 2019, 04:05 PM #12
Dave
As Ian says, it is quite doable. I am not aware or any "tutorials," although I would suggest there must be something out there.
The trick is get square faces to abut your replacement piece of timber.
I did have another No.7 which I could get the pattern off and I layed one handle over the top of the other.
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I believe you have a few saws and maybe another No.7, so possibly you could do this, but if not, TGIAG have a template for a No.7 you could use:
http://www.tgiag.com/saw-handle-scans.html
Use the crosscut version of course as the rip saw had a different profile more suited to two handed sawing.
You need a suitable piece of timber and butt it up similar to this. I had already cut too much off the handle earlier so I can no longer do this without removing more of the tongue. One day I will just make up a complete replacement handle and move it on as a user saw rather than a collectible.
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Glue the blank in place, cut out the profile and then shape with rasps and sandpaper. I only traced extremely quickly and consequently very roughly to show the principle. The most important aspect is to cut the square faces on the handle. You may be able to do this in several ways, which include by hand, table or band saw or circular disc sander. You do need to remove the handle to make this job easier and you may be able to do the internal rough cut before glue up. I didn't get that far. Some others may have useful tips. I know IanW has a really clever, but so simple, scribing pencil technique.
Regards
PaulBushmiller;
"Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts, absolutely!"
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10th July 2019, 01:57 AM #13GOLD MEMBER
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That's going to be a No. 7. If it was an 8, it would have an apple handle, and if it was a 12, it would have a carved handle.
I believe that the medallion you have is later than you suspect, and is more around the 1888-1896 era. The earlier ones have the rim of the medallion filed flush to the wood, where yours is raised. The tell-tale difference in the two eras is the change in the nuts. Prior to the late 1880s Disston was still using split nuts, which require a special, forked driver to loosen and tighten. I'm guessing these could be removed with a standard, flathead screwdriver, correct? That supports the 1888-1896 theory.
This was sort of a "flagship" saw for Disston, being one of their cheaper models, but also one of their most popular, that is until the D8 came onto the scene and changed the game forever. This one was produced right around the time the D8 was gaining notoriety, which was mostly just due to its innovative "skewback" shape.
If you can get the handle fixed, there's no reason this can't be a great saw once again. Hopefully it goes well and we get to see some pics!
Cheers,
Luke
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10th July 2019, 02:48 AM #14Senior Member
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Paul,
Thanks for the links. Yes, you are correct, I do have a virtual twin to this saw:
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I also printed out the pdf of the handle from tgiag -- very helpful site!
I believe I'll give it a try. If it turns out OK, I'll post some pics. The biggest problem I can foresee is getting wood to match. I have a lot of handles, but not many older ones.
Regards,
Dave
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10th July 2019, 09:40 AM #15
Dave, a bit of Beech shouldn't be too hard to come by where you live, but new wood will certainly not match old wood without some magical finishing trickery (something I am utterly useless at!). Your best bet, imo, would be to cast about for an old wrecked plane body, or an old Beech chair seat for your repair.
As Paul advised, just make sure the broken surfaces are clean & straight before attempting to glue on the repair block, take your time shaping it in, & you should end up with a repair that's not too obvious & perfectly functional...
Cheers,IW
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