Thread: Veritas planes

I'd have to say, for the first time, the Lee Valley/Veritas have missed my personal target & I am not even tempted to buy any of those planes, and I have 2 large tool boxes full of Veritas planes, the last purchased a few days before the announcement. It looks, to me, to be about as silly as the annual April Fools projects.

It looks, to me, to be about as silly as the annual April Fools projects.

You will have to explain that - too cryptic for me. What don't you like or agree with?

Regards from Perth

Derek

By April Fools projects, I believe he is referring to these items:
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...36&cat=1,41637
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...=1,43838,43845
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...02&cat=1,42401
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...35&cat=1,42884
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...57&cat=1,43513
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...08&cat=1,42884
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...59&cat=1,50230
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...?p=56737&cat=1
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...=1,43413,45992
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...33&cat=1,42936
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...at=1,230,41182

I know what the April Fool's jokes are/were.

I am referring to the comments about the new planes. I think that you missed that bsrlee was using this as a derogatory statement - I am asking for clarification of his thoughts.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by bsrlee

I'd have to say, for the first time, the Lee Valley/Veritas have missed my personal target & I am not even tempted to buy any of those planes, and I have 2 large tool boxes full of Veritas planes, the last purchased a few days before the announcement. It looks, to me, to be about as silly as the annual April Fools projects.

think it's a great idea being able to select your bed angle and tote/handle shape. If IanW wasn't otherwise detained atm I'm sure he would praise the tote/handle choices (coz he REALLY doesn't like the normal handle).

However, I agree with bsrlee in that none of the planes they are offering do it for me but that's because I've fallen head over heels for the Bevel Up jobbies - if they had handle/tote options for them that would be very cool. I'm sure they will open it up to them if the current idea works out for them.

If I was going to have one only plane it would be a BU Jointer with 2 or 3 angles of blade. Sensational. Two planes - add a block plane. (that's all in 20/20 hindsight of course )

Hi Brett

You will have no argument from me that the BU planes are fantastic. I've helped with enough pre-production testing and written reams over the years. In my opinion, the area in which the BU planes really comes into its own is with a high cutting angle to avoid tearout in interlocked grain ... which we have in abundance in Oz.

However there are a number of ways to achieve the same objective. BU is just one way. A high bed BD plane is another (such as the HNT Gordon range).

A third way is to utilise the chip breaker to alter the chip formation. This involves setting the leading edge of the chip breaker at about .3mm from the edge of the blade. While that sound extreme at first, it is quite straight forward with a little practice.

These new LV planes offer the capability to dial in the type of plane that one prefers: high bed without chip breaker, low bed with chip breaker, and variations.

In addition, there is the opportunity - a first in the industry - to dial in the handle and knob to your hand and bench height. Choice of blade steel - there is O1 and PMV-11. What's not to love? The looks? I like them, but that does not mean that I expect others to as well.

These planes have been on the drawing board for a long time. Rob Lee has mentioned about 3 years. I have been discussing them with the designers for the past 2 years, and had a play with an early model in Ottawa in January last year. They look more refined since then.

I don't think that they are intended to replace planes that already do the job for you. How do they work? I have no idea. Hopefully I will get the chance to find out, and I will post my observations.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Here's a different opinion on chipbreakers from another so called expert.

http://blog.lostartpress.com/2007/12...duce-tear-out/

Then the same expert decides to change his mind 5 years later.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...t-totally-evil

This expert says 1/32" (0.79mm) is good enough.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...reaker&f=false

Now we have this latest report telling us 0.5mm is the go.

http://planetuning.infillplane.com/h...ker_study.html

. Too many wallies in the kitchen.

Originally Posted by planemaker

....... Too many wallies in the kitchen.

mmmm ....

The background to the "re-discovery" of the chip breaker for tuning a plane is too long to write about at this point (if interested, there are a vast number of discussions on Wood Central, an article in its library, a link to the Kato video that was at the centre of everything - all about three years ago). Suffice to say that many well known writers did a u-turn in their advice and opinion about its value. One was Chris Schwarz, above, and another was David Charlesworth. I thought that David was very honest in expressing his change of mind. Others were more defensive.

The bottom line is that I - no doubt along with others - argued for the inclusion of a tunable chip breaker in the new LV planes. And in true LV style, they have come up with something novel in this regard. The plane I used at the factory was the pre-chip breaker version. The thing is, the subsequent offering enables one the choice of setting up the plane with a lower cutting angle and chip breaker, or a higher cutting angle sans chip breaker. You get both worlds, that is, the ability to customise your plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by planemaker

Here's a different opinion on chipbreakers from another so called expert.....
.
.
.
.......Too many wallies in the kitchen.

When I was young fellow I went fishing and would go often with little or nothing to show for it. If I was to say 10 years later I was still going with similar results people might think that my actions were insane. And so this insane person was still going fishing.

The turning point came when a friend of mine got caught with the fishing bug. His approach was to read magazines, books, and any article that he could find. As a matter of course he would pass these to me.

The thing that I found by reading this material is that someone would say in order to catch a particular type of fish you need to do this and in another article a different person would say to do this which were opposite to each other.

So who is right?

The answer is both.

If one method does not work then try another method. I am thinking that Veritas is doing/thinking similar, and like fishing there cannot be a one method to catch fish that works every time.

One of advantages of being and participating on a forum is that you get different opinions. So for me I am not sure how this is going to play out for Veritas.

Well, the thread appears to have transmogrified,

On the original subject, it appears to me that Veritas have listened to the many comments that were made online, some by myself, and have come up with plane designs that can accommodate the requirements of different users and their methods of working differing materials. In particular I found the Low Angle Jack very uncomfortable to use at my bench height, and aesthetically offensive to my eye. I fixed this by purchasing a very nice tote and knob ( from Bill Rittner ) which transformed the plane.

The variations that Veritas are now offering ( although not yet on the bevel up planes ) may have allowed me to get the plane I needed on first purchase.

I have neither held nor used their new planes, but they seem to be addressing the needs of users by offering flexibility in the areas that may require change to suit a particular user and material, and think these variations will be useful. I look forward to reading a professional and responsible review of the planes from someone other than a member of the flat earth society.

On the other subject, if ' experts ' form an opinion on a matter using information available at that time, reinforced by their own experience, then later change their opinion using new information and or experience, I consider that excellent, especially when they take the time to share the information with others.

Regrds

So who is Veritas.


Veritas® Tools Inc., based in Ottawa, Canada, is a world leader in woodworking tool design innovation and is the manufacturing arm of Lee Valley Tools Ltd., a leading North American retailer of fine tools. Lee Valley Tools, established in Canada in 1978, began designing and manufacturing its own woodworking tools in 1982. Lee Valley Manufacturing Ltd. incorporated in 1985 and later becameVeritas® Tools Inc.

Are the frogs interchangeable? Say you bought a #4 1/2 with a standard frog and a #7 with a high angle frog, could you swap them over?

The benefits of using a high angle bedded plane with or without a chipbreaker to reduce tear out has been a known thing for many,many years. Its not something that been recently discovered. What has been recently uncovered is that if you cannot get the chipbreaker within 0.5mm to the cutting edge it serves no real benefit in reducing tear out. That's the real game changer from my perspective.

Originally Posted by silentC

Are the frogs interchangeable? Say you bought a #4 1/2 with a standard frog and a #7 with a high angle frog, could you swap them over?

Yes.

Frankly, this business of swapping blades and frogs is not something that interests me. There is merit in the concept for those with one or two planes, who seek to make the plane do several duties. For myself I would rather have several planes, and swap them around as needed. I don't like taking the time to fiddle when building furniture. Your mileage may vary.

However, swapping frogs on a BD plane makes more sense than swapping blades between a couple of BU planes. Both may be done to alter the cutting angle. The problem lies where a blade from one BU plane, such as a smoother, is swapped for another BU plane, such as a jointer or jack. In my workshop they will have different cambers and this is what makes it difficult to interchange. Raising or lowering a frog for one blade, on the other hand, does not face this issue.

The use of a chip breaker can circumvent the changing of a frog. I did some testing a few years ago and concluded that a close-set chip breaker is similar to adding 10 - 15 degrees of cutting angle. This can give the same result for 45-degree and 60 degree set ups. Consequently, it is possible to get one frog, with either a 45- or 50 degree frog, and learn to us the chip breaker with it. Or get a 60 degree frog and not worry about using the chip breaker. Or use a BU (12 degree bed) with a 50 degree bevel.

Regards from Perth

Derek