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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
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    Default Veritas Plough Plane - Wide blades or not?

    I'm thinking of purchasing the Veritas Plough Plane. Should I get the upgrade for the wider blades and tongue and groove kit? I am purchasing the plane for general joinery as I am keen do all of my grooves, rebates, dados etc without a router.* I should add that I am not completely going to the Dark Side as I will be keeping a small router for mouldings and edge treatments. A good set of wooden hollows and rounds would be nice, but ludicrously expensive compared to a 1/4" router with some basic moulding bits.

    I already have the Veritas rebate plane and the large router plane with fence. If I have the rebate plate, is there any real advantage to having a plow with wider blades?

    And apart from flooring, why would you use a Tongue and Groove joint? Wouldn't it be simpler to join two edges with a "half lap" type of rebate using the rebate plane?




    * If you're in the market for a Triton router package, keep an eye on the Market Place in about a month's time!
    "If something is really worth doing, it is worth doing badly." - GK Chesterton

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  3. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
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    Default

    Hi Dion:

    I strongly recommend you browse Derek Cohen's website. He has extensive reviews on all three of the Veritas planes you mention, including the extra kit for the small plough plane. Incidentally, I have all three planes, but not the extra kit for the plough plane. Rather, I opted for the dedicated tongue and groove planes by Lie Nielsen, which are exquisite to use.

    The plough plane is magnificent for grooves -- eg drawer bottoms.

    The larger rebate plane is great for big-format work, but the smaller skew planes are good too (I have the Lie Nielsen bronze versions, which are great, but I suspect the Veritas offerings may even be better). Why tongue and groove? I just finished a solid-backed wardrobe, rebated around the edges, but tongue and grooved between planks. It's the best joinery to "tame" the movement in service associated with oak.

    its a happy decision any way you go -- wish I could get one of everything!!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

  4. #3
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    Location
    Gold Coast
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    Default

    Thanks

    I've read Derek's review and he has convinced me of the value of the T&G blades
    "If something is really worth doing, it is worth doing badly." - GK Chesterton

  5. #4
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    Default

    No worries mate. I also find Derek's reviews very compelling. He does a great service for the rest of us. I never buy a hand tool without checking his site!
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Africa
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    Default

    I had convinced myself that I had to buy a Veritas scrub plane after reading Derek's review. A while later I found a post he made (around five years after he did the review) in another forum saying he no longer used his Veritas plane and was using a home-made one instead.

    I do like his reviews - he communicates well and approaches the reviews logically, and I always learn something when reading one of his reviews, even if I have no need for the tool. We're lucky to have him.

  7. #6
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    Mar 2004
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    LuckyDuck, I can see the Zen in making a t&g back for a full-sized wardrobe with a handplane, but I'm afraid I don't have your staying-power! I hate noisy, electron-burning tools, but there are times when they get the job done quickly & efficiently. I know, I know, most of us aren't in our sheds for speed & efficiency, I guess it's just that some handwork, like precision fitting of joints for e.g., has a more calming effect on me than planing endless ts & gs....

    Dion N: Each to his/her own, but I would use t&g joints extremely rarely in my projects - about twice in the last 20 years, in fact. I prefer frame & panel for backs of fancier case pieces, not only because they look neat, but because the frame does contribute a little to bracing the piece. The more traditional ship-lap or less-commonly used t&g backs give almost no bracing, unless very tightly fitted, which rather defeats the purpose.

    Cheers,
    IW

  8. #7
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    Apr 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by IanW View Post
    LuckyDuck, I can see the Zen in making a t&g back for a full-sized wardrobe with a handplane, but I'm afraid I don't have your staying-power! I hate noisy, electron-burning tools, but there are times when they get the job done quickly & efficiently. I know, I know, most of us aren't in our sheds for speed & efficiency, I guess it's just that some handwork, like precision fitting of joints for e.g., has a more calming effect on me than planing endless ts & gs....

    Dion N: Each to his/her own, but I would use t&g joints extremely rarely in my projects - about twice in the last 20 years, in fact. I prefer frame & panel for backs of fancier case pieces, not only because they look neat, but because the frame does contribute a little to bracing the piece. The more traditional ship-lap or less-commonly used t&g backs give almost no bracing, unless very tightly fitted, which rather defeats the purpose.

    Cheers,
    Hi Ian:
    Thanks for your contribution. I agree with just about everything you've said. I do confess that I got a right royal blister from all the hand planing required to rebate and T&G the back of the wardrobe! I felt a sense of achievement, but like you said, sometimes the "calming effect" of planing isn't quite as calming as "endless" and "painful".

    I also agree with your preference for frame and panel backs for high end cabinets. In this instance the client wanted the "ship-lapped" look but I didn't want to trust American Oak to "stay put", as ship-lapped joints give no support against Oak's tendency to cup in service. I opted for T&G joinery to help tame any cupping while allowing individual boards to expand and contract.

    As for the bracing issue, again I agree that frame and panel offers superior bracing. I was quite concerned about this when making the wardrobe as the back is the only bracing for the carcass. Consequently, for the two outer-most panels, I screwed them along their lengths to the full-length rebate on the sides, and one "tight" screw about half way along at the top and the bottom. This effectively braces the two sides of the carcass. The rest of the screws attaching the T&G back to the carcass are in very oversized holes so that the T&G joint can account for movements in service. (Hope that made sense!?)

    David
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDuck View Post
    ...As for the bracing issue, again I agree that frame and panel offers superior bracing. I was quite concerned about this when making the wardrobe as the back is the only bracing for the carcass. Consequently, for the two outer-most panels, I screwed them along their lengths to the full-length rebate on the sides, and one "tight" screw about half way along at the top and the bottom. This effectively braces the two sides of the carcass. The rest of the screws attaching the T&G back to the carcass are in very oversized holes so that the T&G joint can account for movements in service. (Hope that made sense!?)

    David
    Hi David - yep, I think so. Seems like the best option under the circumstances. I possibly fuss too much about the bracing issue, plenty of oldies I've seen have zero bracing & wobbled their way into a second century of use ok. Perhaps the best solution of all is a good quality plywood sheet, rebated & glued into the back, but that's not so 'authentic' on a high-end piece, is it?

    A trick I use to add some stiffness to a carcase (like open bookselves, for e.g.) is to use a couple of valences top & bottom, as part of the design. They can be fitted with sliding dovetails or M&T or even biscuits, depending on the job. I've seen old carcases from the 20s & 30s that had had widish rails dowelled into the top & bottom to add stiffness. I guess there are all sorts of approaches, depending on the job & how much time you want to spend (or how much the client wants to pay!).

    Cheers,
    IW

  10. #9
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    Hi IanW: love your reply which has reminded me of the valence option top and bottom. Wish I had thought to do this as it looks fantastic and still gives the vertical joint look, but with great bracing. Thank you.

    I'm sympathetic to your plywood idea, except that the last time I bought some ply, veneered both sides, it cost me a fortune! I reckon, labour aside (and that is a big aside) solid timber is cheaper! Cheers.
    Warm Regards, Luckyduck

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