Thread: Veritas saws

Hi Chook - very glad to hear that your sawing problem has been resolved. I was a bit surprised by your initial post, when you first tried out your new saws, as I had used the Veritas saws a few times myself & found them quite satisfactory. The occasional Friday afternoon product could sneak by QC, even from Veritas, but it seems like that was not the problem.....

Now that you've discovered it for yourself, I can say that I always suspected you might be experiencing a technique problem rather than a problem with the tool itself. You are far from alone when it comes to hand saws. I get to see a lot of people using saws and I have to say that even some professionals are not very comfortable with this bit of equipment, and apply far too much pressure on those teeth. A well-made & well-sharpened saw is a delight to use, and will cut much faster than most people imagine, but you have to let the saw cut at its own pace, & not try to force it along - it's not a carbide-tipped blade moving at blinding speed. I wouldn't give up my tablesaw willingly, but if I were forced to choose only one or the other, I would unhesitatingly opt for hand saws, they are just so much more versatile. I'd probably work a lot more carefully & thoughtfully, and convert way lesss good wood into sawdust, too!

So good on you for persevering, and welcome to the world of decent hand saws!

Cheers,

The fact is that we want everything and we want it NOW. And we want it all to come easily. One of the things I have learned about wood and woodworking is that almost nothing ever comes easily and I should have remembered this when I got the rip saw. In the end I kept going out to the shed and marking and cutting lines until I got the feel of the saw.

You are right about the speed. I was in the habit of breaking down large sheet materials into sizes I can cut on my table saw with a power saw and a straight edge. But I have found that I can cut these sheets very fast and very accurately by hand with a simple panel saw.

And now I have worked out this little rip saw I am amazed at just how fast I can cut the cheeks off tenons. I was also amazed to find that I cannot make the saw grab any more. Once I could not stop it jumping and grabbing and now I cannot get my hands to make it grab no matter how aggressively I cut with it. Very strange
I have bought and old Spear and Jackson panel saw in fair condition and a saw file from LN. Once I get a few current projects done my next task will be to learn to sharpen saws.

Originally Posted by chook

The fact is that we want everything and we want it NOW. And we want it all to come easily. One of the things I have learned about wood and woodworking is that almost nothing ever comes easily and I should have remembered this when I got the rip saw. In the end I kept going out to the shed and marking and cutting lines until I got the feel of the saw.

You are right about the speed. I was in the habit of breaking down large sheet materials into sizes I can cut on my table saw with a power saw and a straight edge. But I have found that I can cut these sheets very fast and very accurately by hand with a simple panel saw.

And now I have worked out this little rip saw I am amazed at just how fast I can cut the cheeks off tenons. I was also amazed to find that I cannot make the saw grab any more. Once I could not stop it jumping and grabbing and now I cannot get my hands to make it grab no matter how aggressively I cut with it. Very strange
I have bought and old Spear and Jackson panel saw in fair condition and a saw file from LN. Once I get a few current projects done my next task will be to learn to sharpen saws.

when i read the bit where you cut sheet material i think the hairs on the back of my neck might have stood up, something about that makes me cringe every time, i just cant do it, no way can i bring myself to cut [man made] sheet material with a nice hand saw, i get the power saw, jigsaw, table or whatever, if i really have to use a hand saw then its one i dont like much (or someones else's lol)


when you sharpen the panel saw bear in mind what type of timber you will be cutting, most people will sharpen with bevel/fleam angles to suit a compromise between hard and soft wood species, understandably so, but its just worth remembering that you can sharpen to suit the specie you most often use. i remember one day a guy gave me a LN panel saw to cut a few bits with and then he gave me some cedar to cut with it, he was wanting me to comment and praise how good it was i'd say, he likes it so no doubt was hoping i would as well...i didnt give much indication whether i did or didnt, i kept it to myself mostly but i dont mind saying its a decent saw, it felt ok, great compared to stuff down the local hardware but not in the same class as my favourite old pre-war saws, it had an ok ring to it but as soon as i ran my fingers along the teeth i knew it wasnt going to work well, particularly with the timber he gave me, so i saw away and he's looking at my unintentional scowl as i'm sawing and then the finished cut timber and says ,oh i think i gave you the 9 ppi instead of the 12ppi, nah its the 12 i say, i just hand it back to him and say 'its a nice saw',.... and it is an ok saw, but it would have been a lot better if the teeth where set better and if they where sharpened to suit cedar


cheers
chippy

I was saved from the potential horror of cutting melamine with a good panel saw by virtue of the fact that I don't have a good panel saw yet. My collection of hand saws equals an old Sandvik Tenon saw (which I have had for more than 20 years), 2 Japanese pull saws and the 3 Veritas saws. PLUS one old Bunnings $10 hardpoint saw with a plastic handle that I have had for a very long time. It is this saw that I use for breaking down sheets. I also have a large old Spear and Jackson saw that I purchased from the Sunday Markets for $5 that I hope to turn into a good saw in the near future.

I am interested in what you say about adjusting the saw for the type of timber I mainly use. When it comes to this sort of thing I am a complete novice. I have a fair supply of Silky Oak and a lot of odd bits of everything else. Suppose I decided to set the Spear and Jackson up for soft timber like silky oak or even clear grade pine perhaps. I suppose I would need 2 saws, a ripping saw and a cross cut saw. How would I go about setting the saws up. Fleam, rake and set for example. How would this be different for harder timbers?

Chook, I understand what you say. For me, it's a nearly overwhelming reluctance to buy any more
wood carving tool other than very conventional ones. I don't know how to use them.

I bought the Haida-style crooked carving knife blades from Lee Valley. I have some others,
modified Mora #171 hook knives, which I like very much. I went to the Museum of Anthropology (UBC)
and studied Haida knives & home made handles from a century ago.
Back here at home, I made up handles, sharpened the blades and. . . . . . .
I don't even know if I am holding them properly (fist grip with my thumb up one side.)
They cut/carve OK. I've looked at some YouTubes.

I think I should follow your lead and do lots of practical experimentation.

Originally Posted by Robson Valley

Chook, I understand what you say. For me, it's a nearly overwhelming reluctance to buy any more
wood carving tool other than very conventional ones. I don't know how to use them.

I bought the Haida-style crooked carving knife blades from Lee Valley. I have some others,
modified Mora #171 hook knives, which I like very much. I went to the Museum of Anthropology (UBC)
and studied Haida knives & home made handles from a century ago.
Back here at home, I made up handles, sharpened the blades and. . . . . . .
I don't even know if I am holding them properly (fist grip with my thumb up one side.)
They cut/carve OK. I've looked at some YouTubes.

I think I should follow your lead and do lots of practical experimentation.

I suspect that there a plenty of people like us around. I have vast enthusiasm and this passion is exceeded only by my lack of skill. Now I used to think that one day with enough training and practice that my skills would grow to reach my level of enthusiasm."One day I will be happy with what I can do." I now realise that that is not going to happen. Every time I make an advance in skill my expectations rise in tandem and see more unexplored and unknown areas. My eye becomes more critical and I remain dissatisfied with my work. When I was younger this used to bother me and took away some of the pleasure of making things. Sometimes there is good reason to feel this way. Yesterday when cutting the tenons for a frame one of the joints was just horrible by any standard. But in the main, friends and family, visitors to my home and the places where my work has gone seem content with what I have made for them. And it is hard to predict what people will like. One Sunday I made an odd little box with dovetailed corners divided into two sections with a lidded top and a badly made draw at the bottom. The scratch marks from the setting out of the joints remained and I did not get the grain direction on the two sections of the front to align properly. It was headed for destruction until my wife saw it and it now sits in our lounge room since she says it is beautiful.

It is only me that remains unappeased. But now I see this itch that cannot be scratched as the motivation behind any progress I make and that the day I am really pleased with my work will be the day that I should take up macramé. Your desire to know more seems to be driven by the same awareness of your inadequate knowledge. I can suppose that the chaps who built the Great Pyramids finished them then stood back in the hot desert sun, scratched their bums and thought "Yes well they are okay I suppose but maybe next time we will get them right."

By the way I have heard that the types of timber that you can access in your part of the world are softer than Australian hard woods. I wonder if that is true.

Everything I make is an experiment. Sometimes experiments fail. But the rubbish is collected on Tuesday mornings.

G'day chook,
the old sandvik tenon saws probably come in all sorts of variations but some of the ones i remember from from 20 years ago don't look as pretty as some of the old, or some of the new ones going around and the handles can be a bit blocky (can be somewhat fixed easily enough though), handle horns not encapsulating enough either, but from a purely practical pov they can get the job done near as well as anything ,again it helps if you sharpen them to suit a purpose, most of them of that era out of the shop are sharpened as a mid way soft/hard wood saw and also midway capable between rip and crosscut, leaning a bit on the crosscut cut side of things usually, fact is there are so many variations/combinations of rake, fleam etc its unrealistic to expect a manufacturer to supply precisely what you want so they supply more or less what works, its expected you alter and sharpen your saw to suit your own needs ,i least i have always said as much, if the saw suits what you want to use it for out of the box then your just fortunate, honestly for the life of me i dont understand why everyone expects the saws to work perfectly off the rack nowadays (it only going to work well until it needs sharpening anyway, (but that seems to be what the manufactures are promising as well), i always consider a new saw as un sharpened until i do it myself, to suit the purpose i want it for (a rip saw can often work good enough though)..i'd hazard a guess you have never sharpened your old sandvik? i'd wager that given a good sharpen it would be as capable (not ness as pretty or modern) as (almost) any new saw of comparable size you could lay your hands on

from that you might start to think you need a whole host of saws if you work with substantially varying timbers, and it doesnt hurt (at all) but its not necessary. If you have just a small (carry around) kit then you might not have much choice than to keep one tenon saw that works both sides of the street or you might be lucky and have a rip and a Xcut, when i started as an apprentice we didnt get bugger all money and what i did have was often spoken for well before i had the slightest chance to splurge on saws. the boss expected the work done quickly and properly though, so often my mate Gaza (the other apprentice) and i would sharpen our saws differently, one ,might be rip, the other Xcut and since we sharpen our saws most days (sometimes more than once in a day) we adjust the fleam etc to what we might be working with that day, quite often its the same timber day after day and might just change with the next job, its no big deal to alter the saw to suit, obviously your saw doesnt last forever when your changing things all the time but they arnt meant to last forever either, as for dovetails or other small fine cuts we often used to use hacksaws in the early days believe it or not and i'd have to admit i cut quite a few since that way as well when caught somewhere i wasnt expecting to do smaller joinery and didnt have small DT saw available, it was just another money saving thing and i guess it saved us carrying an extra saw around since we had to have a hacksaw anyway, they work remarkably well and produce fine accurate cuts, no one could tell what we cut them with and they did a far better job than a 12-14tpi tenon saw

as for how to sharpen your saw, well that could be a long conversation! its not overly hard (its one step at a time) but it is long to go into with detail, i would think the Post Master General (pmcgee) will have some links that will save me a bunch of typing and those pages usually cover the basics (you have to start somewhere), but basically the sharper the fleam the nicer the Xcut cut, but the tooth is not as durable, in softer woods you can make the fleam more pointy and it will hold its edge, there are other filing methods to strengthening the tips as well but thats a little more advanced , rake can be adjusted as well, more straight up the more aggressive and fast it cuts, the more laid back the smoother finish it will produce and will start the cut easier, developing the tips of the teeth perfectly is worthwhile and sloping gullets can get you extra performance out of the saw as well...rip saws are easier to learn than Xcut and its mainly rake you need to experiment with on your rip saws, the veritas is likely cut on machine and is probably perfect 90deg across the face of tooth, when you sharpen by hand you need to concentrate to get near perfect 90 deg, if you wonder (with the file) too much your turning it into a half rip and it might not appear to be as quick or as sharp as it was..your veritas is only going to be as nice as it is until its next sharpening so it might be good idea to start sharpening practicing on the sandvik while you have something to compare with

cheers
chippy

Originally Posted by chook

....Every time I make an advance in skill my expectations rise in tandem and see more unexplored and unknown areas. My eye becomes more critical and I remain dissatisfied with my work.....

Chook - I think I'll borrow this for my epitaph, if that's ok with you!

Originally Posted by chook

...... By the way I have heard that the types of timber that you can access in your part of the world are softer than Australian hard woods. I wonder if that is true.

As someone who has played with a few woods in both countries I can answer that to some extent - the answer is yes & no. I had access to a pretty wide range of commercial & non-commercial woods when I lived in Southern Ontario, and was quite interested in how they compared with the stuff down here. Our more extreme woods like the hard, dense species of Acacia (Gidgee!) & some of the other very tough species (try some Johnstone River hardwood on your fancy chisels!) are much harder than most species that grow north of Central America, but they still have some toughies. We also have lots of soft (as in less hard) woods, too! More 'traditional' cabinet woods like Qld Maple and (some) Blackwood are very similar in hardness, & just as nice to work with, as Walnut or Cherry. The Silky Oaks, particularly Grevillea, are softer, while Australian 'cedar' (Toona) is way softer, similar to North American Western Red 'cedar' (though of course ours is a 'hardwood' and neither is a true Cedar). Hickory & Honey Locust are tough woods which I would place as being similar to Jarrah for working with hand-tools, and there are some North American species that are harder still, depending on how far south you want to extend your range.

Then you have to consider the non-cellulose bits in the wood - many of our woods are highly siliceous, which is what really knocks cutting edges about, so Janka hardness is only part of the story. Sugar Maple is only moderately hard compared with just about any Eucalyptus species, but it is one of those woods that takes the edge off a plane blade much more quickly than you might expect (& I don't know why, as I don't think it is highly siliceous, but Robson V. might be able to shed some light here?).

As far as Softwoods go, old growth Hoop Pine & Canadian White Pine are very similar in texture, colour & working properties, and Bunya & Kauri are pretty similar too. Our Callitris beats any softwood I struck in North America for density & hardness (Tamarack, a Larch, is the toughest they have, if I remember correctly).

Our hardwoods used in construction are in general very much harder than the Softwoods which are mostly used for framing across North America, but old, dry White Oak is up there with our Eucalypts.

That's just a brief survey, but perhaps enough to illustrate that it's hard to make sweeping statements about wood hardness in the two areas without specifying particular types & common usage....

Chers,

Originally Posted by ch!ppy

as for how to sharpen your saw, well that could be a long conversation! its not overly hard (its one step at a time) but it is long to go into with detail, i would think the Post Master General (pmcgee) will have some links that will save me a bunch of typing and those pages usually cover the basics (you have to start somewhere) ...
cheers
chippy

Wow - that would be one of the politest ways I have been referenced - there are many others that are less complimentary (and more accurate)

This I think is the classic link among **MANY** : Welcome to Vintage Saw's Saw Filing Treatise

I haven't done enough of it yet to be able to give a good opinion on "I like this page better than that page ..."

but I can tell you this ... read it through today ... then in 6 months ... then 6 months after that ... and you will have a whole new perception and appreciation of what is presented each time.

Cheers,
Paul

before Australia Post and Telecom (now Telstra) there was the PMG Department, every time i see your username it reminds me of it