Thread: Sorby Rip saw

Good pick up. I'm going through a number of planes and saw restoration which involves me learning to file rip and crosscut for my hand saws. Threads called Hand tool revival.

I've just been using white vinegar and bicarb soda for 24hours once you've removed the handles. Then a wire brush and clean and dry it. I sand and buff the split nuts so they shine when re inserted. Then I generally start from 180grit sandpaper up to 600 or so then spray rust resistant WD 40 and wipe over with a rag.

Then get some files and mount it between two bits of timber and touch up the teeth following the same profile the saw has.

Hope that helps



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Thanks Delbs. Will check out your post.


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No probs. Nice bench also [emoji123]

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Agreed with delbs, nice bench! What wood do you use for the bench, Derek? Nice figure & colour contrast.
Sorry to drift the convo away from your saw.

Cheers,
Andy

Derek

There is more than one way to effect a restoration and before I begin I have to point out that mine is a "purist" method, although it is probably as close as I get to pure!

I remove the handle as I don't believe the plate can be cleaned satisfactorily without doing this. As your saw has split nuts you will need to fabricate a screwdriver with a small cove in the middle. I have found that old, useless, poor quality chisels can be converted for this purpose, but others have made them from small pieces of old saw plate. It is a good use for those hard point saws that no longer cut. Don't try to unscrew the nuts at one hit , but work them ever so slowly back and forth. They are held by only a couple of threads, but the thin brass stems are weak and you are in trouble if they break off.

With your saw I think it has only a stamp and no etch. An etch can be worn away during the cleaning process if not careful, but a stamp is more resilient. Just be aware that the three crowns will probably be the first to "disappear" if you are too vigorous. Keep watching. As to the method of cleaning, this is where the purist approach comes in. I don't use any chemicals and no electrolysis: Just W & D paper, water (you can use other lubricants such as metho, turps or WD40, but they are more expensive, more messy and no better in their results) and elbow grease. Lots of elbow grease.

With your saw I would start with 240g and do most of the work with that grit. Wrap the paper around a block of hardwood to avoid finger marks. Only move on to the finer grits once you have done as much as possible with the 240g. I doubt with this saw that there is much mileage going beyond 800g, but see how it pans out as you go. Using water as the lubricant means that at no time can you leave the plate wet as it will commence rusting immediately. When finished or if you have to stop for any reason (fatigue for example) dry the plate with a rag first. Then I put the plate in the oven at 60°/70° or if it is in the middle of the day under the hot sun that will be sufficient. Another alternative is to use a hair dryer. This is to remove all residual moisture from even the small pits that will be in the plate. It is a good idea after that to wax or oil the plate to inhibit further rusting particularly if you are in a coastal area or one of high humidity.

Unfortunately I have no access to Sorby catalogues, but I think it is pre 1935 at the very latest and with the split nuts considerably earlier than that. If it was an American saw I would say that it is easily pre 1900, but the Brits seem to have hung onto the split nuts for far longer and your saw could even be into the 1920s. Somebody else may have more information.

Don't be tempted to use power tools on the saw plate: You will be unable to remove the resulting scratches without your arms falling off .

Be sure to post some pixs with the trials and tribulations.

Regards
Paul

I'll second what Paul said. I would never use acids or other 'rust-eating' compounds on my tools, I suppose a saw is easy to clean thoroughly, but using corrosive substances on anything with nooks & crannies is just begging for trouble. Even water is off the menu for me, I use kerosene or mineral turps with W&D. If the rust is really thick, I start with 180 or even 120, which will rip the rust away quickly, but leaves more/bigger scratches to remove with the next grade, so it's a bit of a judgement call. Your blade looks a bit pitted in the middle on the LHS, you'll never get rid of pitting, and it won't affect saw performance noticeably, so there is no point in trying. Just get as much of the saw polished up as you can without giving yourself a permanent dose of RSI.

You're lucky to get an intact nib, I reckon that's an indication it served a careful owner in its day (perhaps that's the true function of a nib? ). Having a stamp instead of an etch is also a good indication your saw is a venerable age.

And one last bit of advice: the first thing I do with an old saw before I spend any time at all on it is to file a couple of teeth at the heel or toe & set them. I've had a coupe of old saws that were too hard & brittle to set, and no, they were not "Acme" or Disston 77s, so how they became so hard I never did fathom. Anyway, it's always worth a quick check to see what the metal is like before you spend precious time & energy on something that turns out to be unusable....

Cheers,

Thanks Paul and Ian and delbs. Will post an update when I get to this saw. Really appreciate the input.

Originally Posted by IanW

And one last bit of advice: the first thing I do with an old saw before I spend any time at all on it is to file a couple of teeth at the heel or toe & set them. I've had a coupe of old saws that were too hard & brittle to set, and no, they were not "Acme" or Disston 77s, so how they became so hard I never did fathom. Anyway, it's always worth a quick check to see what the metal is like before you spend precious time & energy on something that turns out to be unusable....

Cheers,

Ian

That is something I never do and something I should always do. I am lucky in that I have only ever had one failure in terms of saw teeth breaking. You will never guess what brand it was:

QLD Robert Sorby Kangaroo panel saw (woodworkforums.com)


I gave the saw away to a good friend in the end. He took it with him to America as he liked the Roos.

Regards
Paul

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

...that is something I never do and something I should always do. I am lucky in that I have only ever had one failure in terms of saw teeth breaking....

Paul, fortunately it's not at all common. I've encountered it twice, once in a hand saw I got at a flea market & once on a backsaw (that was someone else's). I guess you've had more saws through your hands in the last few years than I have handled in my entire life, so that kind of puts the statistics in perspective. The vast majority of saws that show any signs of previous use are going to be fine.

But having been burnt once I prefer to spend a minute checking before spending hours 'restoring' only to find I have a dud....

Cheers,

hand sand with w/d paper (not coarse, but maybe like 320 grit or 400 and something like WD40 for a lubricant.

Plates like that that I've cleaned, the layer of brown oxidation can go pretty deep, and cleaning absolutely all of it off isn't necessary. It is necessary to get anything loose or uneven off of the surface. If you wax the saw plate after that, the brown surface won't cause an issue.

If you spend a whole lot of time getting all of the brown off, you can end up working partially through the compressed layer on the surface that's holding saw tension. BTDT.

Coarser paper may help get through the brown more easily, but it will also leave some bright scratches that you'll never get out.

Removing the pitting is out of the question.

David

I believe you have to assess the condition of the saw before deciding which grit of W&D to commence with. It is all a balance of degree of rust, patina and general grime. I agree that too coarse a grit will create scratches that will result in more time spent working with the finer grades. I suggested 240g for this Sorby saw, but that is without the benefit of seeing the saw in the flesh. If the saw was covered with a red rust I would start with 120g, but quickly move to 240g when the bulk of loose and flaking material has gone. Other people start with scrapers in these cases, but I don't do that. As I pointed out there re many ways to accomplish a restoration.

Some saws I will keep going up to 2000g, but much depends on the original level of finish as to whether this is worthwhile.This D115 Jubilee saw was in poor condition but polished well as originally it had a mirror finish. It also exhibits pitting that can never be removed. I had to accept that.

Victory series D115 Jubilee 002.jpgVictory series D115 Jubilee 006.jpg

I went looking for some particular saws today and found this one, which I was not looking for:

P1060756 (Medium).JPG

I piqued my curiosity and I realised there was an etch there so I tore up some W&D. I tear the sheet into eighths and wrap the eighth sheet around a hardwood block I measured the size approximately (sorry, in metric). I do it this way because I use all the paper. Nothing is wasted (unless I imbibe at the same time . ) The edges are used primarily down at the toothline. In the first pic you can see the paper around the block is already clogged.

P1060761 (Medium).JPGP1060762 (Medium).JPG

In this instance I used the paper dry because it was only for a demonstration and to quickly assess who made the saw. Using W & D dry is OK but it clogs the paper much to quickly

P1060759 (Medium).JPG

It has a WS medallion (no clues there). However there are at least three clues in the hint of a simplified keystone symbol, manufactured in Philadelphia and made by the most famous sawmaker in the world (they all,rather immodestly, tended to claim that). So a Disston saw without their name.

Actually the purpose was how to go about uncovering an etch more than who made the saw. If I was restoring this saw I would continue with W&D, but with lubricant, and all work done across the etch needs to be carefully watched so it is not rubbed away.

Regards
Paul

That Sorby (pointing upward) is the second English saw I've seen. On both of them, the name and other details were stamped in. The one I owned for a while was, if memory serves, a Spear and Jackson, with a plate far thicker than any other saws I've seen here on the left edge of the U.S. continent, including the docking saw I picked up at a yard sale. So, two questions:

1. Is stamping common on English handsaws?
2. Is the plate on that Sorby thicker than average and (corollary question), is a thicker plate a requirement when you're stamping the name in?

Originally Posted by Bill Houghton

That Sorby (pointing upward) is the second English saw I've seen. On both of them, the name and other details were stamped in. The one I owned for a while was, if memory serves, a Spear and Jackson, with a plate far thicker than any other saws I've seen here on the left edge of the U.S. continent, including the docking saw I picked up at a yard sale. So, two questions:

1. Is stamping common on English handsaws?
2. Is the plate on that Sorby thicker than average and (corollary question), is a thicker plate a requirement when you're stamping the name in?

Bill

I think stamping, as opposed to etching, generally indicates an older saw. Certainly it does with American saws. I think the Brits seemed slower to adopt etching and Sorby in particular retained the stamping system for some time. S & J definitely went to etched saws.

Generally the saw plate becomes thicker as the saw length increases so that stiffness is retained and the tendency to kink the blade while sawing is reduced. Typically a 26" saw will be 0.036" but a 28" saw like Derek's I would expect to be 0.039". Panel saws tend to thinner. Having said that, some manufacturers may have used a thicker blade for any given length of saw plate as there is some variation.

Regards
Paul