Thread: Windsor Chair Tools, Questions, Trials and Tribulations

Well you are working with harder timbers so maybe you will need to sharpen your tools more often.

If I was making only one or two chairs I wouldn't bother with all the fancy gear.
I'd just use some chisels and gouges and clean up the shape & finish it with a 7" panel beaters sander.

You could also consider an arbortech wheel on a grinder

As for tapered holes you could make up timber reamers the right shape and fit a single cutter in a slot. Disposable electric plane blades might be the go there but you can always make blades out of an old sawblade. Just drill holes in the timber with a spade bit and use the tapered reamer to open them to the right shape.

I agree with Echidna, if you are only making one chair its just as easy to carve the seat using a gouge. I have done one with a home made adze, followed by a gouge and a home made plane. A "buckhorn" scraper could be used to finish off- again make it yourself, I think Shopnotes had a pattern for one. Alternatively, if you want to go real low-tech, use broken glass as a scraper, a rock and/or a broken brick to finish it off...I'm not kidding! Rub the high spots off using a rudimentry abrasive.
I tried making a tapered reamer which I posted some time back, worked fairly indifferently. As for the tenon, use a drawknife and a spokeshave.
I'd love to able to afford all that fancy kit, but I think its more for small production runs, and anyway people made furniture for themselves for generations without all that!

Cheers,

Originally Posted by echnidna

If I was making only one or two chairs I wouldn't bother with all the fancy gear.

That is the thing most are very simple tools just over priced, in my view. I think their must a big market for hobbiest reclaiming a slice of Americana by building Windsor chairs. An interestingly fact is that their are more Windsor Chair makers and their chairs today then their was at they height of the Windsor Chairs popularity.

Originally Posted by echnidna

finish it with a 7" panel beaters sander.
You could also consider an arbortech wheel on a grinder.

I do not have a 7" panel beaters sander or arbortech wheel on a grinder, would cost more buy them then to buy a good set of hand tools.

Originally Posted by echnidna

As for tapered holes you could make up timber reamers the right shape and fit a single cutter in a slot.

I have seen this, it is a question of getting a access to a lathe to turn the reamer shape, also what kind of taper would I need, I could not have it as fine as the metal reamers at 4 mm to 20 mm taper, but that would be way cool. I just have so many tools to make the list just keeps growing.

Just found this Lee Valley Standard Taper Reamers and it is cheap.

Originally Posted by Andy Mac

I have done one with a home made adze

How did you make the Adze?

A "buckhorn" scraper is on my todo list, I think that as soon as the D2 blades are done then I will make a compass plane, followed by a "buckhorn" scraper.

The other option that looks quit handy is a Veritas Pullshave

Originally Posted by Andy Mac

I tried making a tapered reamer which I posted some time back, worked fairly indifferently.

I will look it up - indifferently? code for?

Originally Posted by Andy Mac

As for the tenon, use a drawknife and a spokeshave.

What I have read is that the Windsor is able to support a person weight in contradiction to the fact that is so light in construction by the means of its construction. The strength comes from a 2" thick seat with long through tenons which gives the most face glue surface, and a tenon that must be tapered to absorb the weight of the person. The greater the weigh the more the tapered tenon is forced into the socket as the legs have no shoulders. I would not be confident in making a suitable strong enough joint perfect in its circumference and taper so as to match the tapered mortice.

If I were making a chair this is what I'd be looking at. I've just bought one but haven't had the chance to use it yet. It's a Veritas pullshave

Originally Posted by Toolin Around

but haven't had the chance to use it yet. It's a Veritas pullshave

Toolin please do so and write up a review. I wonder how heavy a cut could it take could it really hack away at a seat. What kind of finish it would give in figured wood.

Hi thumbsucker,
When I say indifferently I mean the tool didn't seem to do the job overly well. You could perservere and get a job of sorts done, but not efficiently. It seemed to tear the cross grain section a bit, much like the tenon rounders I made! There's a pattern emerging here
As for the adze, it was made from a short length of leaf spring steel, using oxy acet to cut and shape it, & knocked a hole through it for the handle to fit. Welded a pipe collar around the underside of the hole, then finished it with grinder and files before heat treating it with the oxy acet. It works OK, could do with more of a hooked curve on it.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by thumbsucker

...Then their is the question of ... Spoon Bits...

Lee Valley also sells some Spoon Bits, these however are no name brand and do not look as well finished as the Clifton the Clifton Tapered Reamer and the Clifton Spoon Bits are however twice the price...

The LV spoon bits are made by them.

If I needed spoon bits (meaning I didn't have my vintage ones) I would buy the LV ones. Spoon bits are rather simple tools. Clifton hasn't had any competition concerning spoon bits. LV can simply make them for less.

Take care, Mike

Hi Helmut

I have the two LV squirrel-tailed planes for review. So far I have only used the flat-bottomed block plane. Still looking for a project for the round bottomed one. Both are great little planes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Originally Posted by MikeW

The LV spoon bits are made by them.

If I needed spoon bits (meaning I didn't have my vintage ones) I would buy the LV ones. Spoon bits are rather simple tools. Clifton hasn't had any competition concerning spoon bits. LV can simply make them for less.

Mike that is what I wanted to know

I think it would be great for derekcohen and Toolin Around to do some reviews of these shaping tools.

I think the Veritas pullshave would be better at hocking out material, the Veritas guide even says it is more a ruffing tool that will need scraping and sanding afterwards. The pullshave keeps your hand out of the hole that you are shaping and I think you could create more leverage with that long handle, hacking out material as you go. The squirrel-tailed planes look more like finishing tools to be used after you have established the depth and shape with the pullshave.

It maybe time to make some Veritas purchase for myself and a Wenzloff Carcass Saws for xmas thanks to SWMBO.

Hi TS,

I've haven't got any useful insights to add since I haven't actually made anything relevant yet, but I've been squirreling away info and the occasional garage sale tool for the eventual day I get around to making a Windsor chair or maybe an English style pub/smokers chair myself.

Years ago I read Dunbar's book on Windsor chair making, which I think was responsible for setting me on the downward spiral of collecting old tools. Later I asked a question about Windsor chair making on a news group and got a response which was basically "Ignore all that, Mike doesn't make chairs that way anymore. You gotta go to one of his classes!"

Some time later I picked up a book by Jack Hill - Country Chair making. It had a lot of different details and said it was fair and reasonable to use either green or dry stuff to start with, while noting it was going to be a lot harder with dry wood but not to be deterred.

When it came to shaping seats Jack simply suggested - use whatever method suits you and/or the tools on hand. Adze, 'shave, travisher, gouge whatever. It did however go on to give a brief idea of how to apply each tool. This appealed to me since I often think I get too concerned about having the RIGHT tool for the job. It's undeniable a lot of furniture has been made throughout history without the benefit of fancy tool steels and other 21st century technology. What it usually doesn't say is how much experience, skill, aerobic fitness and patience play in producing a final result.

How many failed projects are we prepared to practice on before getting a decent result? How much does the cost of timber come into consideration and how much the cost of our own time? How much do the tools really affect the outcome?

One tool suggested in the Jack Hill book is a Roundering machine for making spindles. It was based on providing a low speed driver to apply a rounder to the blanks at a user friendly speed rather than the higher speed of a lathe. It's design is based on running a washing machine motor through a small car's 3 speed gear box, I expect an Austin A40 or similar gearbox at that! Nowadays the front wheel drive thing is probably going to make even that machine difficult to reproduce. Back to the treadle lathe.....

Hi TS

Not sure if you have heard of the guy who runs this placehttp://www.rarechairs.com.au/Gallery.html

Howards a great guy with a great philosophy on his woodworking and making traditional chairs. I have done a short course of his. There's no real need to use tapered tennons and taper reamers and all the like. just turn a shoulder in the right place, tennons are also wedged anyway.

Last wood show here I got a $10 wooden compass plane from McJings in Sydney. All it needed was a good regrind of the rough blade and its great for smoothing chair seats. roughing out can be roughly done with a scorp or reforged adze (can get them cheap just reforge em to a curve).

Wouldn't really bother with spoon bits and shell augers although normal brace type bits with side spurs will cut a clean hole and won't wander like a spoon bit. Dont forget the old wooden spoke shave (witha tightish mouth) its low cutting angle is great for end grain while shaping the edge of chair seats.

Steve

Thank you Zsteve and Fuzzie for your thoughts. Interesting how Mike Dunbar has changed his method. I think the spoon bits are less of a concern however I think that the tapered tenon are very important because the tapered forms an integral component in the strength and durability of the legs. Without shoulder the tenon would eventually break its glue bond and ride up and through the through mortice.

I have not had much luck at garage sails however I keep an eye out on ebay. I am however keen to explore tool making and blacksmithing in the near future and to make my own tools.

I do think however that a Veritas pullshave and a Square plane would do a fine job.

If you are keen on the idea of tapered tennons and taper reamers make one - http://www.greenwoodworking.com/reamer.htm

Any progress with your venture thumbsucker?

There are many ways to go about making Windsor chairs and a fair bit of it depends on whether you're into the whole antique tools/traditional way of working or whether you just want to make an attractive and functional chair.

I bought Dunbar's first book in 1976 after I'd made a few Windsors and got the bug. For all his research and 'authentic' woodworking practices, there's a picture of him in the book hollowing out a seat with an adze along the grain!



The very action of an adze blade swinging through an arc means that during each cut, the blade will first go 'with' the grain and as it exits the wood, will go 'against' the grain.

This picture illustrates how 'bottoming' should be performed.




This all just goes to prove that even executed incorrectly, a seat can be successfully hollowed out by whatever means.

I admit to owning a full compliment of antique Windsor chairmaking tools, but I don't honestly remember if I ever used them when making a Windsor chair, or if I did use any of them, I don't think I used them exclusively.

My main tool for bottoming was a (Sandvik?) chainsaw-toothed disc – a predecessor to the Arbortech Pro-4 Woodcarver, which was followed by a rubber backing pad and various grades of sanding discs and finally hand scraping/papering. You could also get by with one of these Kutzall Sanding Discs.

You would need more than an adze to shape this seat!




As Zsteve mentioned, tapered sockets aren't necessary. It's traditional to insert wedges into through-tennons for leg-to-seat holes. As long as there's even a slight register, the legs won't move either way.

You can often see more than a slight register at the juncture of leg and seat if you upturn an old Windsor. The step that forms the register is present partly because oversize legs were bought in from bodgers and were intentionally left there when the tennons were finally turned by the chair framer.

There's such a variety of superb power bits available these days that you wouldn't even consider using a spoon bit for any of the holes in a Windsor.

If you're shaving the legs to shape and don't have a lathe to prepare the leg tennons, then one of the Veritas Power Tennon Cutters and a couple of power bits would get you by.