Thread: woden plane

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I dont know if you are still chasing info on this after 9 years. I have just aquired a WS A78 plane, without the fence, but otherwise complete and in good order. I discovered that all the threads on this plne are metric. The ones for the fence rods are 6mm, while the lever cap screw, the screw holding the front knob, and the depth setting device screw are all 4mm. I have made a fence from crows ash, which has turned out pretty well.

Well it was probably worth resurrecting the thread to add that info, mspil. The thread sizes of plane parts can be a real puzzle if you don't happen to know & even if you have mildly sophisticated gear like thread gauges, they don't often fit into little holes, & even when they do it's hard to see if you have a good match!

Your post is very timely for me, because I was putting my Record 07 back together after sharpening just yesterday and as I tightened up the cap-iron screw, it suddenly let go (not a good feeling!). The screw looked dicey when I first I got the plane many years ago, so I wasn't altogether surprised it had finally stripped at the critical point. The thread in the cap-iron itself looked fine, so I scratched through my spares drawer but came up with nothing that matched. No big deal, I'll just make a newie, thinks I. I judged the size to be about 5/16 & being British and a coarse thread, expected it to be Whitworth. Nope, a 5/16 bolt stopped after a half turn; that wasn't it. The thread was too coarse to be BSF or NF, so I was at a loss until out of curiosity I tried an M8 bolt - perfect fit! So a few minutes of work at the lathe & I had a new screw and we were soon all back to work.

I was puzzling abut that M8 thread & thinking it might have been something someone did before I got hold of the plane. Both C.I. & screw looked original, the screw has linear knurling around the head, which matches the C.I. screw on another Record I have. But your post indicates Record may have been using metric when my plane was made. I have no idea of its date of manufacture, I 'found' it at a flea market so its previous history is lost forever, but it has to be reasonably early 'cos it has genuine Rosewood woodwork - that puts it pre-1960, I should think? I will check the other threads on it next time I have it apart for sharpening to see if they all match metric sizes. So the question is, when did Record start using metric on their bench planes - right from the beginning, or some time down the track?

Cheers,

Hmmm, interesting. It's my understanding that Record changed to metric in the 1990s, or late 1980s at the earliest. Until then, their bench planes used the same non-British standard threads as Stanley used (that's how closely they copied Stanley). So for a metric bolt to fit, either it's a coincidence that the two threads have similar diameter and pitch - or someone's tapped it metric.

In theory Record stopped using rosewood from WW2, but in practice many of their larger planes continued to come out with rosewood knobs or totes right through the 1940s (old stock?).
Post a picture of your Record frog and I'll tell you what era it is.

Cheers, Vann.

Originally Posted by Vann

...However, I tried a Record 778 fence on the Woden W78 and found the the fence rods on the Record are at 140mm crs while on the Woden they're at 149mm crs. So the chances of the Mustarka, or Anant, or anyone elses fences fitting are decreasing. Looks like it'll have to be a wooden (not Woden ) fence.

So now I just need GazPal, Brontehls, or Orraloon (or anyone else with a Woden W78) to advise the length and thread on the Woden fence rods....

I never did update this thread. I asked similar questions on the UK forum, and DID update there. Here's the result (dated 26th October, 2011) from UKworkshop:

Originally Posted by Vann

I started this thread about a year ago, not long after I came by a Woden W78 rebate plane and wanted to add a wooden fence.

Well a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.

Firstly, I obtained a fence, rods and lever-cap from a WS A78, sans any of the appropriate thumbscrews, from a member of the Aussie woodwork forum.

WS1.jpg

WS2.jpg

The brass WS lever-cap replaced the bent Woden lever-cap on my WS with the knurled cap-screw transferring over (both lever-caps having the same thread).

The fence had the same fence rod hole pitch as the Woden, but the Woden has 5/16” rod holes, whereas the WS uses ¼” diameter rods. A friend with an engineering shop in his garage, made up two adaptor rods.

WS3.jpg

Alf and Bugbear of this parish, had identified the thread as 5/16” BSF.

Then I needed some thumbscrews to tighten the fence.

I found that the screws on the grooving attachment of a Record 735 fibreboard plane, have the same thread, and look about right. I just had to trim ¼” off the length.

WS4.jpg WS5.jpg

The friend also identified that the rods were perpendicular to the sides, but the base was not. He kindly surface ground the sides lightly to remove light rust pitting and then surface ground the base at 90° to the sides.

WS6.jpg

WS7.jpg...

So the original thread in a Woden W78 is 5/16" BSF (British Standard Fine), while a WS A78 is 1/4" (but I never checked to see if that is BSW or BSF).

Cheers, Vann.

Originally Posted by Vann

Hmmm, interesting. It's my understanding that Record changed to metric in the 1990s, or late 1980s at the earliest. Until then, their bench planes used the same non-British standard threads as Stanley used (that's how closely they copied Stanley). So for a metric bolt to fit, either it's a coincidence that the two threads have similar diameter and pitch - or someone's tapped it metric.

In theory Record stopped using rosewood from WW2, but in practice many of their larger planes continued to come out with rosewood knobs or totes right through the 1940s (old stock?).
Post a picture of your Record frog and I'll tell you what era it is.

Cheers, Vann.

It’s a lot easier to swap the knob and handle than to re-thread to a different thread.

Originally Posted by Vann

Hmmm, interesting. It's my understanding that Record changed to metric in the 1990s, or late 1980s at the earliest. Until then, their bench planes used the same non-British standard threads as Stanley used (that's how closely they copied Stanley). So for a metric bolt to fit, either it's a coincidence that the two threads have similar diameter and pitch - or someone's tapped it metric.....

Vann, I wish I'd checked further before shooting my mouth off! Out of curiosity, I pulled out a Record 05 this afternoon & checked the thread in its cap iron. It is certainly not metric. However, I easily screwed a 5/16" BSW tap through it with my fingers, so it's either that thread or one very close to it. This one is a much later model, from the 'blue' era, whras my 07 hails from the black paint era. The 07 has the fully-machined, flat frog while the 05 has the 'degenerate' frog with the web-like machined surface.

So my 'revised theory' is that either someone ran an M8 tap through it, or (more likely I think) the thread in the CI has simply been distorted by the over-tightening enough to let the M8 through. While 5/16 and 8mm are close enough for practical purposes, BSW is 18tpi & M8 is 20tpi (near enough). Normally, you can't screw the wrong bolt into a nut more than 1/2 a turn.

Originally Posted by Vann

......In theory Record stopped using rosewood from WW2, but in practice many of their larger planes continued to come out with rosewood knobs or totes right through the 1940s (old stock?).
Post a picture of your Record frog and I'll tell you what era it is.....

Here y'go, a front & side view - will that suffice? RF front.jpg RF side.jpg

I'd be very pleased if you can nail it to the decade or so, it's a beaut user & I've always wondered just when it was made...

Cheers,

Originally Posted by IanW

...Here y'go, a front & side view - will that suffice? RF front.jpg RF side.jpg

I'd be very pleased if you can nail it to the decade or so, it's a beaut user & I've always wondered just when it was made...

Cheers,

No .

I can't for the life of me make out if that disc at the bottom of the lateral lever has a pin (to theoretically allow the disc to rotate), or whether it's fixed (spot welded).

So here's a rough (but reasonably accurate) guide:
Pattern 1 - rotating disc (on lateral) - 1931 to 1939 (usually has nickel plated screws and rosewood handles too);
Pattern 2 - rotating disc, "Warfinish" stamped on lateral - 1939 to 1945 (usually lever cap unplated cast-iron);
Pattern 3 - fixed disc - 1945 to ~1952;
Pattern 4 - fixed disc with "Record" stamped on lateral lever - ~1952 to 1957.
After that they changed frog design.

With thanks to the late David Lynch Record Hand Tools

Cheers, Vann.

Originally Posted by Colin62

It’s a lot easier to swap the knob and handle than to re-thread to a different thread.

True, but Ian's photos show a pre-1960 frog (though with a little more work a frog can be swapped too). However, by the time Record changed to metric threads (1990s) all their plane bodies were cast with "Record-Marples" instead of just "Record". Another way of telling is pre-1960 planes had the top edge of the side "wings" machined, whereas from about 1957-59 on they had painted (non-machined) top edges.

I trust Ian will confirm his is pre 1960?

Cheers, Vann.

Thank you Vann - Yep, I think we can nail it to 1945-52 pretty confidently from that info. The disc is definitely fixed and the lateral lever is not stamped with 'Record' anywhere. It does have an embossed 'XXXX' on the top of it, though (which is just the fancy crimping to attach the little thumb 'wing' ).

Making new CI screws could become a habit! Yesterday, I was battling with re-fitting the CI on my workhorse (English) Stanley #4. This plane was a flea-market job that I acquired a very long time ago which fettled up to a very nice user (& speaking of changing handles, I replaced its crude Beech handles with more hand-friendly she-oak examples). In the process, I changed the front knob to something like the 'low knob' style of the early American Stanleys which will give the rhykenologist of the future something to scratch their heads about!: Old #4 S-oak handles.jpg

Anyway, I digress, the point is, I'd put a PMV11 blade in it a few years ago, and with the thicker blade, the wretched CI screw was about a half-turn too short for comfort. By the time I'd get it to hold, it was too tight to manoeuvere the CI into position easily. After it slipped over the edge of the blade for the second time, I was on the point of throwing the thing at a wall, but remembered it wasn't all that difficult an exercise making the new screw for the Record, so I pulled out the remains of the stub of steel I'd used the day before & made a new screw for the Stanley (5/16 BSW was a good fit in the CI for this one, so that's the thread it got).

All good! I can now put a full turn on the screw without making it too tight, & slide the CI into position with no fuss. Dunno why I hadn't dunnit years ago!

Cheers,

One more thing, in case I confused the observant types; I described my 07 as being painted black - a complete brain-fade! It's sorta black, but that's due to oxidation, the few small remnants of paint are definitely a nice dark shade of blue. It's a few shades darker than the paint on the later 05 I have, which dates to the 57-86 era by David Lynch's chart). D.L. mentions the colour varying over the years, so that's ok. So I have one Record that could be about the same age as I am, or a few years younger, and one about the age of my kids. Both of them cleaned up nicely and with after-market blades in them, are very good users....

This has been a very useful thread for me - I now know how to get a rough date on a Record pretty quickly, so thanks for the heads-up, Vann....

Cheers,