Thread: Woodriver Planes

Originally Posted by monoman

How true. But it's also much more than that - It's called marketing.

Spot on - the creation of reflected charisma

Originally Posted by ian

At least Record gave their (out of patent) copies of the Stanley-Bailey plane a different number and colour.

Er... Stanley never made a No 4 bedrock, as the bedrock series of planes added 60 in front of the plane size.

Originally Posted by ian

I firmly believe that without Tom Lie Nielsen and more lately Rob Lee and their companies, (plus a handful of Aussie tool companies) we would not have had the revival in hand tool use we've seen over the past 20 years
my experience using both my father's WW2 era Stanley / Record planes and my own Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley planes is that the LNs / Veritas planes mean that it's possible to work most Aussie timbers without having to resort to tungsten tipped powered tooling — to me taht counts as innovation

Perhaps you should also consider that they have also put the cost of using handtools out of reach for most of the world's population. And on another dimension they have greatly added to the myth that only certain tools from certain manufacturer possess that certain "je ne sais quoi", and therefore, by extension, are a must have. Unless one possess one or more of these wonder tools one is not a serious woodworker.

How did we ever manage without them.

By the way. The chicken came first.

George

We are a consumer centered society that wants instant gratification and results. Expensive planes allow this. In the past the knowledge was passed from master to apprentice and as part of this tool were made to test the apprentices skills and knowledge. In the past if a craftsman needed plane to smooth say difficult grain in a harder variety of wood they would have experimented say with the blade bevel angle maybe made a new plane out of wood with a lower angle or reversed the bevel in the plane etc etc.

Other are correct that LV LN etc have made available nice tools that do a great job to the average joe at a hefty price. But many of their ideas are not original and the point of difference on some tools is not so great as to set them apart as truly different. It is true that LN LV have both done well through good marketing but reality is is that someone else has gone and started to compete with them on price in other word the cheese has moved and they need to concentrate there R&D on other points of difference

Maybe they LV LN need to move their manufacturing to China and lower their prices to the same level to compete on the same playing field ?

what an interesting thread....

I work as a product manager for an investment management company, but the skills of a product manager can be pretty much applied to any product.

If no patent or intellectual property rights are being breached, then its simply business. If a patent or IP right is being breached its theft.

If theft is not the case, what has really happened?

If Woodriver have discerned that there is a consumer need and they can meet that need, then that's called free enterprise. Of the original four P's of marketing - product, price, placement and promotion, they have discerned that new premium planes are too expensive for a segment of the market. They also knew that the product had to be much better than a new stanley. So they have got it spot on I would think.

What about LN and LV? Well they have two options open to them. They either compete on price or on product. With the brand equity these two have developed I doubt they would move to compete on price. They might... it could force them to re-engineer a process or two that helps lower labour costs etc. without compromising quality. But any good business should have done this already to maximise profit.

The other option, and the one I expect them to adopt, is to compete on product. they will continue to produce the better planes, and they will continue to develop their existing products and bring new products to market.

Competition is good for businesses and its good for consumers. Monopolies or duopoloies lead to inflated prices and lazy inefficient companies (and I'm not suggesting LN or LV are either).

I think the one thing LN and LV should take from this, is that they have fiercely loyal followers. That is priceless for a business. they not only have consumers, but they have advocates. they are the best form of promotion a company can have.

Anyway... just my thoughts.

Tom

Anyway... just my thoughts.

And I think you have nailed it...

Originally Posted by kiwioutdoors

Maybe they LV LN need to move their manufacturing to China and lower their prices to the same level to compete on the same playing field ?

Maybe LV already do.

Read the Rob Lee quote Derek supplied and see what you think is going on.

Originally Posted by derekcohen

Rob Lee on WoodNet..

[I]
There's nothing wrong with buying product made in China - the Chinese can make good products and do good design. They represent a 1/4 of the planet's population after all.


We (at LV) will not deal at all with firms that engage in intellectual property piracy - not matter how much profit can be made by doing so. Nor will we rationalise buying non-offending products from such firms on the basis that we're not buying the directly copied product - as this is still supporting the activity. I suppose it's a matter of each firms individual corporate ethics, and sense of social responsibilty or public policy.

Most of the world manufactures in China, even if it's only getting components made there.

A friend of mine makes snowboards, Force Snowboards. He used to have them made in Austria and Italy and would spend big money taking out patents and fighting them in court when needed.

Now he has everything made in China. The quality of his product is consistently better, and now he doesn't bother patenting anymore. As he puts it, "when you do business with the Chinese you just have to accept that a percentage will leave the factory by the back door and with someone else's branding, and there's nothing you can do about it."

Originally Posted by kiwioutdoors

they need to concentrate there R&D on other points of difference

You make a very good point.. ethics and squabbles aside, the only way forward now for LN or LV (am I abreviating correctly?) is to stay one step ahead of the copiers.. if they do.. and if they do it well the punters should see some great stuff pumped out in the next decade or so. If they are the inovative and quality driven companies that their image certainly suggests it should not be a huge struggle to stay one step ahead of mobs like Woodriver who are really just playing the low margin high volume game.

Originally Posted by silentC

And I think you have nailed it...

Agreed. Especially about the advocates. I think how long it took me to realise that Record are now rubbish just because I'd never had the need to buy a new one. I hope the premium manufacturers don't use the badging to stick on poor quality goods.
Jim

Originally Posted by tomnewby

The other option, and the one I expect them to adopt, is to compete on product. they will continue to produce the better planes, and they will continue to develop their existing products and bring new products to market.

Don't you love it when you type up a post just to discover somebody else was putting the same thoughts into words.. only far more eloquently

Well put

Excellent post Tom.

Originally Posted by monoman

Maybe LV already do.

Read the Rob Lee quote Derek supplied and see what you think is going on.

Maybe Derek, with his intimate knowledge of both LN and LV, can shed some light on this.

Isn't it somewhat ambiguous and hypocritical that Rob Lee won't deal with Woodcraft, but doesn't seem to have a problem supplying Carba-Tec who sell other Chinese-made Stanley copies and copies of just about every woodworking machine under the sun.

TLN obviously doesn't share Rob Lee's stance on companies like Woodcraft.

Of course if the performance is close to LV and LN you lose a great deal of the justification for spending such amounts.
Jim

Originally Posted by jimbur

Of course if the performance is close to LV and LN you lose a great deal of the justification for spending such amounts.
Jim

I'll let you all know tomorrow. I ordered some and am paying for next day delivery. Hopefully, Derek will stop sulking and accept my offer to review them. He has experience at writing tool reviews, I do not.

I am doing this purely out of curiosity. I have no financial interest with either the planes, Woodcraft, or the manufacturing company, and I paid for the planes with my own money.

I'll write a quick report for the forum.

George

Originally Posted by Woodwould

Maybe Derek, with his intimate knowledge of both LN and LV, can shed some light on this.

Isn't it somewhat ambiguous and hypocritical that Rob Lee won't deal with Woodcraft, but doesn't seem to have a problem supplying Carba-Tec who sell other Chinese-made Stanley copies and copies of just about every woodworking machine under the sun.

Easy there. I went back to Rob Lee's original comments that Derek posted and was somewhat surprised to see that his post was to a discussion titled, (I kid you not)

"new Bedrock planes - NOT Woodcraft"

See for yourself. "http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=4278501&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1"

Clearly Rob Lee is going on about some one, only we don't know who, and that makes it unfair to point the finger at Woodcraft. It may well be Woodcraft. only I can't see how we can deduce that from the supplied evidence. Therefore I unreservedly retract any comment I made connecting Rob Lee to Woodcraft. Sorry.

Maybe Derek with his intimate knowledge could ask Rob Lee to respond directly. No more miss quoting that way.

Cheers

George

BTW. Carbatec have recently dropped one Stanley copy from their catalogue - Lie-Nielsen.

Point taken.