The saw that wouldn't

**IanW** · 11th August 2020, 06:50 PM

It seems to me that beginners all too often have a tendency to look to the tools to make them instant experts. Not even the very best tools can do this, and you will certainly not get the best from any tool until you’ve gained enough experience to know whether it's the tool or the person using it tht's t fault when things aren't going well. I’m not talking about the consummate skill of an artisan who has practiced a trade for 50 years, there is a good level of competency that can be achieved by your average weekend warrior which will enable a high standard of workmanship.

Saws are a very good example of a tool that is deceptively simple, but there are very few people in the world with such natural dexterity that they can pick up a saw for the first time & saw with ease immediately, no matter how ‘good’ the saw is. Cutting straight, & right on a line, is mandatory if you want parts like dovetails to fit together nicely “off-saw”. It takes some practice to saw straight & close to a line, but with a little perseverance, and moderately decent tools, most people can achieve tolerable results after a bit of practice.

I think it’s ludicrous to go out & spend $400 on a tenon or dovetail saw. Undoubtedly, the saw will cut well (it darned-well should do at that price!), but pretty soon, it will need sharpening, a job you’ll not want to do yourself for fear of wrecking your expensive bit of kit, so you'll most likely postpone that because of the bother & expense, & before long, your very expensive saw will be cutting worse than one of those plastic-handled thingies from the local hardware store.

In a moment of grand pomposity, I conceived this idea that I’d go out & buy a cheap (~$20) hard-point saw and show that any saw can cut acceptable dovetails if you've had a bit of practice. The plan was to pit this saw against my regular D/T saw, cut a set of dovetails with each, & see who could pick the difference once the pieces were assembled. That was the plan, the reality was something a little different….

After perusing what was on offer at a local branch of the Big Green, I chose a 12 tpi saw that had Japanese-style teeth, oriented to cut on the push stroke. 5 saw teeth.jpg

The blurb on the paper sleeve claimed the saw was ‘optimised’ for both crosscutting and ripping (a heady claim!). Dovetailing involves mostly ‘rip’ cuts, of course, but I also had a plan to use this saw for other comparisons which would involve crosscutting, so that swayed my decision.

I decided to use very basic tools along with the plastic-handled saw, just to add a bit more challenge. Here are the contestants lined up for the competition: 4 tool kit.jpg

I’ve hidden the saw brand so I don’t find myself defending a libel suit (but I’ll try to stick to purely factual & verifiable statements, so I hope they wouldn’t have a case to bring, anyway!

What isn’t obvious in the picture of this saw is the rather thin & narrow (13mm wide) spine, folded from a piece of steel that could have started life as a jam tin & about the same thickness as the blade (0.6mm). It would appear to serves no function other than making it look like the saw has a back, it’s far too flimsy to stiffen the blade. The whole saw weighs 420g, most of which is handle.

But the real shock came when I applied it to some wood. I have to say, the only saw I have ever encountered that was (marginally) worse than this beast was a toy saw, with unset, blunt teeth, given to me by a well-meaning, but misinformed relative when I was about 8 yrs old! Apart from the difficulty of starting such an “unbalanced” saw accurately, it cut at a snail’s pace, and refused to go in any one direction for more than a stroke or two, resulting in a very ragged kerf. I was determined to show I could cut straight, even with this thing, & tried my darndest to stay close to my lines but I’m compelled to confess, it defeated me.

Here are two sets of tails, one cut with the test saw, the other with my regular dovetail saw. I don’t need to point out which is which! 6 tails cut.jpg

The dry fit of the resulting dovetails is very ordinary, & to add to the mess, I was concentrating so much on trying to follow my lines, I made the classic tyro’s blunder & cut on the wrong side of one line: 9 gap.jpg

Fortunately, the saw kerf was so wide, it was easy to slice a thin sliver of matching wood (with my ‘good’ saw!) and tap that in to neatly fill the gap. 10 remedy.jpg

Glued up and planed flush, the result is acceptable from the ‘front’ edge (I made a knife-edged pin in the centre of the set I cut with my saw, but the test saw cut too wide a kerf for that sort of showing-off). 11 fronts.jpg

It’s a sadder story from the side – definitely not ‘acceptable’ in anyone’s book. 12 sides.jpg

Hmmmm – not at all the result I'd planned!

(More to come...)

**IanW** · 11th August 2020, 07:06 PM

The saw was so bad, I was tempted to take it back, which I probably should have done, if only to find out if it was a random lemon, or all its mates on the rack were the same. Instead, I decided to see if I could make it perform more like a saw, so I pulled out a diamond paddle file and had a go at cleaning those teeth. 13.jpg

They were covered in oxide scale from the hardening process and no edges actually looked sharp, which probably explained the slow-cutting. I have zero experience in sharpening Japanese style teeth, so I just blundered along, maintaining the angles as well as I could and trying to get some sharp edges where metal meets wood.
After my dental work, the saw cut cleaner and a little bit faster: 14.jpg

and at least I was able to cut reasonably straight lines with it, though not as easily as with my regular D/T saw. 15.jpg

At this point I abandoned any idea of continuing with the rest of the trial I had planned and decided to do some major re-purposing of this saw-like thing instead. So off with the plastic handle (an easy task, just two Allen screws to undo), and tapped off the “spine”. I then clamped the blade between two bits of 5mm steel & ripped the teeth off, just above the gullets at the extent of the blueing caused by the hardening process: 1 Stripped & ripped.jpg

A handle and a new spine (6 x 19mm brass) and it is starting to look like something grandad might have recognised as a saw: 2 Rough assembly.jpg

I toothed it at 12 tpi, rip, set & sharpened it. As a side note, I’ve re-purposes a good half-dozen or more hardpoint saw blades now, most of them were Irwin ‘disposables’, a couple were of unknown parentage, but all have been reasonable quality plate, as far as holding sharpness goes. This one seemed a bit softer than average when I was jointing the tooth-line after cutting off the teeth, but it managed to thoroughly wreck the (Bahco) file I used to tooth it, so it’s certainly not mild steel!

The bits were cleaned-up & the saw reassembled and put through its paces again. What a difference a day makes! It now cuts clean & straight, and at a pace I would expect from such a saw. 3 Straight cuts.jpg

The numbers on the left piece are the number of strokes for the re-birthed saw (12 ) compared with my D/T saw (20), each cutting under its own weight. The ‘new’ saw being longer cut deeper for each stroke. The cuts on the right are each 20 strokes in Blue-gum, which it sailed through with equal poise.

One last attempt at cutting some tails shows a big difference too. Much easier to start & much easier to keep on the line, and a fr less ragged cut ("new" saw on the right, my regular D/T on left): 4 DT cuts.jpg

So there you go, I failed miserably in my initial mission, but at least I’ve created something usable from the sow’s ear I started with - I think it looks better, & it definitely performs better than the thing I started with. 5 Done.jpg

[Edit: forgot to mention, the saw now weighs 620g - a substantial increase, and the balance point is where it's sitting in the holder, so it sits nicely in the kerf once under way & cuts very freely under its own weight, thanks to the slightly more substantial spine].

Expenses incurred were $20 for the donor saw, & about $15 for the brass (the wood I got for free

). Excluding my time, I reckon I could recoup my outlay if I chose to sell it..

Oh, and I don’t recommend any new-chum start with one of these saws in its original guise….

Cheers,

**rwbuild** · 11th August 2020, 08:12 PM

Tools don't make a craftsman but a craftsman can make the tools

**Bushmiller** · 11th August 2020, 08:47 PM

Ian

That was a very good exercise. I have long thought making a useful,resharpenable saw from a re-purposed "hardpointer" was possible. The question was really around what base steel alloy was being used and I, as well as others, had failed in that quest.

You have shown that it is very possible and I am encouraged that all the hardpointers I have kept, despite the fact that their very sight offends me, may be useful one day.

Which allocasuarina is the handle? Sheoak? Really impressive whichever one it is.

Regards
Paul

**LanceC** · 11th August 2020, 09:34 PM

That was a great post Ian. I would say that it mirrored my experience, but I was a rank beginner when I re-did my first saw, so every dovetail I cut at that stage was a vast improvement over the previous, so don’t know just how much my anecdotal experience stands up under scrutiny.

None the less, I do know that there was a reason I decided to try improving my saw at the outset.

How did you slot your brass back? That is one operation I would love to be able to do for the weightier backs (and the looks), but have yet to find a suitable method.

**Simplicity** · 11th August 2020, 09:38 PM

Ian,
I would not call that a failed attempt, granted there was a change of course.
An a course that was forced upon you.

But in the end Perseverance won you another saw[emoji6].
Not that I think you need one.

I can also most picture the look on your face when the grinder was turned on.

Thanks for an excellent write up.

Cheers Matt.

**ian** · 12th August 2020, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Simplicity

Ian,
[snip]
I can also most picture the look on your face when the grinder was turned on.

a mixture of glee, trepidation, will this really work, why am I so obsessed with this saw ...

I'm not sure whether the new handle should be open or, as you've made it, closed.
Would you care to comment on why you went with a closed handle?

**Tom trees** · 12th August 2020, 05:44 AM

That saw looks tasty Ian.
I was thinking of doing a similar thing, but instead rather to retain the horrible plastic handle and steel spine for
use reclaiming timber from skips. (if stout enough)
I would hate to give off the impression about the town that I have a workshop at home.
I was hoping that the plate would be softer on some throwaway saws, and could be worked with tired saw files, plus being easily re-touchable as salvaging often leads to hitting a nail, cement glass or putty, when cutting doors and frames etc.

Would you deem jointing the plate the first thing you would do to get an impression on the plate hardness...
or would you go about it another way...
Bearing in mind that I intend to use the one I have for my salvage rucksack...
Something along the lines of...
Take a file to the rear of the plate, or running a file along the front edge of the plate maybe?
Would this small area being worked on with a second cut file be enough to get the impression on plate hardness,
as I am looking for a plate made of cheese?

Thanks
Tom

**IanW** · 12th August 2020, 09:32 AM

Well that raised a few questions! Let me try to answer in order:

Paul: I think the sawplate we imported for that saw-making workshop 10 or so years back was 1080, but I'm only 80% sure. I am a bit more certain Dale said it was actually made in Sweden. If you do a search for "sawplate", a British site comes up & they sell similar rolls to saw manufacturers. They say it's 1080. I assume most of that goes for making hardpoint saws, since they are the main game nowadays.

In any case, from my searching & reading, there are a few different alloys used for saw plate. I think it dosn't matter so much what the alloy is as the final (tempered) hardness and toughness. You want a hardness somewhere in the sub-55 Rc range, so you don't need a high C content. What difference there would be between 1090 (a common choice of backyard saw-makers ) and 1080 tempered to the same hardness, I couldn't say, but I strongly suspect we would be hard-put to detect a difference in any way.

As I said, I've re-purposed quite a few hardpoint blades over the years. I know I kept a couple, but I have forgotten which was which. All of my saws hold their edge much the same, as far as I can tell, though there is a bit of difference in the 'feel' when filing some of them. However, I've noticed at least as much variation in old saws when sharpening them, some file smoothly & peacefully, others put up a screeching protest at each stroke of the file!

I've mentioned the difficulty of comparing edge-holding in saws many times. Even when very busy on the tools, I don't need to sharpen my saws every day or several times a day the way I often need to do with plane blades, so you quickly lose track of when any saw was last sharpened. I suspect, if I could do a genuine comparison that some would hold out longer than others, but it's really of no practical concern. If a saw is starting to cut a bit slower than I think it should, I stop & sharpen it (well, most times!). If you sharpen your saws regularly & keep the teeth even, it takes less than 5 minutes for a small saw, 10-15 minutes if it needs a major clean-up, re-gulleting & setting. Took me years to develop the habit, but working with sharp saws is a pleasure, working with dull ones is work!

Lance: To slot the backs, I use a slitting saw and a jig I made for the drill press. The arbour & saw came from McJings and cost $15 & $10 respectively (they don't have this particular model any more): Arbor & 20thou blade red.jpg

The jig has a sliding top that can be adjusted to expose more or less of the blade: Spine slitting jig.jpg

When setting up, ensure the blade is parallel to the bottom part of your jig, or the saw will want to climb in the cut: Base of slitting jig red.jpg

Adjust the saw height so it will cut dead-centre of your brass (this can be the fiddliest part of the exercise). Take it easy, run the saw at its recommended speed & don't try to cut more than about a mm at a time and you'll get a very clean cut. I used to try & match blades very closely with the saw-plate, but these days I cut most slots with the 0.8mm blade and squeeze the spine in my (aluminium-jawed) vice to get a nice fit on thinner plate.

Keep your fingers away from the nasty part of course - it's nt too dangerous, the blade is well-covered except when it exits at the end. I sometimes use a push-stick for the last couple of passes. Always meant to make some sort of holder to press down on the blade & hold it against the 'fence' instead of using fingers, but couldn't think of anything suitable that wouldn't be a bigger bother than a help. Since I usually don't slot more than 4 or 5 backs at once, it's hardly a big deal, it takes abut 15 minutes to slot five 300mm backs...

Ian: No rational reason for closed vs open handle. I tend to put open handles on smaller saws (up to say 225mm blade length), and closed handles on anything larger. I like he look of a nice pistol-grip handle, but also like fussing about making a closed handle...

Tom: I suspect you will find the plate pretty hard on any semi-respectable throwaway saw. To my mind, it would have to be reasonably hard & well-tempered or it would bend in the first cut you made, not to mention giving up any semblance of a cutting edge after a minute of sawing. You may be better than I, but I find you can only get an approximate estimate of hardness with a file - you can get a better estimate trying to drill it with a HSS bit - most saw plate wrecks a 5mm bit by the second hole!

You will have to remove those hardened teeth, and you cannot do that with any regular steel files. But cutting saw plate is dead easy - a cheap angle-grinder and a 1mm cutoff disc zips through 0.6mm plate like butter. Clamp the 'good' side between two pieces of 5mm steel bar and you won't cook it. You may get a bit of light blueing along the cut, but by the time you joint & straighten the cut, that's usually gone.

Cheers,

**Bushmiller** · 12th August 2020, 10:33 AM

Ian

Thanks for the detailed response. I have one of those saw arbours and blades to suit. I just need to fabricate a jig and some brass and (the most difficult part) find the time!

And the timber for the handle was ?

Regards
Paul

**IanW** · 12th August 2020, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bushmiller

...And the timber for the handle was ?

....

Apologies, I got carried away & forgot that one.

Yep, you guessed correctly, it is She-oak (Allocasuarina torulosa). Some of the Allocasuarinas can be hard to tell apart, there is quite a range of colour & medullary-ray size within each. She-oak & River oak (A. cunninhamiana) are usually easy, but sometimes very difficult to separate. The most difficult pair I find is Bull/Hairy oak - at one time I thought I could pick them apart easily, but after a few years of colour darkening & dust/dirt accumulation, it;s not so easy! Ony yesterday, I was squinting at a handscrew handle & I could not for the life of me decide which one it is!

Cheers,

**IanW** · 18th August 2020, 09:27 PM

That hardpoint saw I started this thread with was a pretty severe disappointment. I’ve bought a few hardpoints over the years, they are handy to have, especially in situations where the possibility of hidden hardware make me very wary of using my re-sharpenable saws. I’ve accidentally cut through a few nails with a hardpoint saw, which doesn’t do them a lot of good, but they will keep cutting where a re-sharpenable saw will gve up entirely! So I decided to try another brand, because I still want to tackle the little project I was planning to do with the saw that wouldn’t saw. There weren’t a lot of choices were I looked, so brand recognition had a lot to do with my choice – I bought a 300mm Irwin “backsaw”. At approximately $16, it was cheaper than the first saw - was I going downhill?
This saw is also light, it weighs about 370g, and unlike #1 it has conventional “Western” teeth, at 12tpi which are sharpened crosscut (i.e., with fleam). Taking a close look at the tooth line didn’t fill me with confidence. They start off alright at the toe: 1 Teeth a.jpg

But in the middle third to half of the saw, become cows & calves. Some teeth are just a sliver: 2 Teeth b.jpg

I don’t think my very first attempt at filing crosscut teeth looked quite this bad! Since I assume the teeth are cut & sharpened by machine, I can only imagine the sharpening machine was poorly adjusted and out of sync.
Well, let’s see how the teeth cut. Surprisingly, not too badly on some hard wood (River oak), and the surface it left was remarkably clean: 3 Cross grain cut.jpg

Comparing its rip performance with the saw I made from the blade of the miserable performer, it did not cut as cleanly and did not go as far in 20 strokes, partly because it is so much lighter & partly because of its tooth configuration (my re-purposed saw has the same tpi but is filed as a rip saw): 4 Rip 20 strokes.jpg

I decided to pit the two saws against each other and repeat the dovetailing exercise. Now here I ad a bit of bother because I always saw dovetails from the front of the board, which means every second cut has to be made to the left of a line (some people prefer to turn it around so they always cut to the right of the lines). Sawing them my way is quick & easy with the small saw I usually use, it's not very tall & I can see the line fairly well even when it’s to the right of the saw, but with a tall saw like the ones I’m using here, it’s much harder to see the line & you get more parallax error, so a couple of cuts from both saws were not right beside the lines as intended.

Both saws cut straight, the hardpoint was a little slower, and not as clean as the ripsaw, but acceptable.
I was aiming for a clean fit off-saw, but I had to trim a couple of pins, to get a dry fit: 5 Dry fit.jpg

Glued & cleaned up, both sets are tolerable, no gaps from the sides: 6 Sides.jpg

…But a little ragged on top due to poor starts: 7 Top side.jpg

The gaps are only superficial & would plane out easily enough, but I left them to show I didn’t achieve the perfect “off saw” fit I was after. I think that with slightly firmer wood (the scrap I used is as soft as butter!) I could get better results, but of course, having proved the point, I’ll be reaching for my nice little D/T saw when any serious dovetailing is required - it's a far more delicate thing: 8 Saws.jpg

The second hardpoint saw will suffer the same fate as #1, eventually, but it has a few other jobs to do before that happens....

Cheers,

**hiroller** · 22nd August 2020, 08:42 AM

I think the plate for the saw workshop was CS95 which is equivalent to 1095.
It was back in 2013 - how time flies!

I have a couple of hard point saws, including one I keep in the back of the car - just in case.

**Bushmiller** · 22nd August 2020, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by hiroller

I think the plate for the saw workshop was CS95 which is equivalent to 1095.
It was back in 2013 - how time flies!

I have a couple of hard point saws, including one I keep in the back of the car - just in case.

That long ago. I can nearly remember 2013!

I understand the saw in the vehicle "just in case." I have one too:

Australian docking saw.JPG

Big crosscut teeth (4½ppi): In case you have to do the work in a hurry.

Regards
Paul

**Simplicity** · 22nd August 2020, 09:08 AM

Ian I hope this deviation is ok ?
I’ve been trying to find 1095 steel “at reasonable price’s” to make some panel saws ?
So it’s interesting to now read that maybe I should look further a field 1080 CS95 .

Cheers Matt.
Ian nice saws as always.

Thread: The saw that wouldn't

Thread Tools

Search Thread

The saw that wouldn't

The saw that wouldn't, Part II

The saw that wouldn't

One Further Chapter in my saw saga...

Similar Threads

It Wouldn't Happen to Me

I said I wouldn't do it again :-)

My wife wouldn't

Wouldn't we all like to do this

You wouldn't read about it! :(

Posting Permissions