Thread: 3 phase or single phase and HAFCO ST-12D depth of cut?

Originally Posted by Mattress

Hello everyone, first post so go easy on me. I'm a complete novice and I'm bound to get some terms wrong.

My name is Matt and I've been looking around your very helpful forum for some time gathering information, researching and such.

I've been looking to start some wood working as I have access to a reasonable amount of hardwood (not sure on type) which is milled but very weathered. Sizes are generally 100 x 100 and 2400 long or 100 x 150 and again 2400 long which i would like to rip down and make some things (not really decided yet). So i figured my starting point would be to acquire a table saw.

By chance i recently stumbled upon a HAFCO ST-12D what I think is a very reasonable price. Now this is where I'm a little bit lost and would like some advice or steering in the right direction.

Firstly the saw is a 5 hp 3 phase machine. Do I use a static inverter to run it single phase, rewire the motor as i think it's possible to run it single phase that way or remove the 3 phase motor and buy an equivalent single phase motor? Another possibility is to have 3 phase run to my property, pending price from the utility company.

Also as most of my material is at least 100mm high I would really hope that the saw would handle this without flipping the material. I've read that the ST-12D is only able to cut a depth of 95mm. Now this is where I might look really silly but is it possible to use a slightly larger blade or is 305mm the absolute maximum for this machine?

I hope the above is easily followed and i welcome your advice, thanks.

Hi Matt, welcome to the forum.

regarding the saw, have you considered a bandsaw? some argue its more versatile than a tablesaw and you dont need a huge motor(ie, 3 phase 5hp) to run it and it can easily cut 100mm, if the manufacture says 95mm, its generally 95mm. cutting a stock on the boundary of a machine's capacity is not alaways a good thing... am not sure about using larger blade, you probably dont want to do that. if the manufacturer can put a larger blade on it they would have done so to attract buyers.

regarding the power, have you asked your power company about how much would it cost? I thought about putting 3 phase on my property for awhile and I even considered phase converter, but the phase converter can only go up to about 10hp and the big ones cost thousands of dollars. I thought the 3 phase would be expensive to install but turns out there is 3 phase available on my street and it only costed me $300NZD to pay the power company(well the electrician cost is another story... you need an electrician to wire it up from the street fuse box to your property)

I think you'll find a fair bit of a difference between weathered Aussie hardwood and NZ timber.
A 12" table saw that cuts only 95mm is not the way to rip lots of weathered Aussie hardwood that is wider than 100mm.
While it is possible to rip a few pieces you will find that long term it will overload the saw.
The problem is the blade is too small and fully buried in the wood it will be cutting simultaneously with almost 1/4 of the blade in what is called a blind cut. This is not the way to be ripping lots of timber.
To rip lots of timber with a TS you really need at least the top teeth protruding from the wood and I don't believethat going to a greater powered TS will make a lot of difference with such a small blade.

I'm not sure you can even get a 4kW (5HP) single to three phase inverter but if you can it will not be cheap and you will need to have a dedicated 25A line wired into your shed to run it.

The way to rip these in a home workshop is with a big (19"+) bandsaw and a low TPI blade.
A 19" bandsaw doesn't actually cut 19" wide but has a 19" throat but it should cut 12" wide boards in a single pass.
A 3HP BS would do this easily, it won't be fast but it will do it all day without batting a tooth tip whereas the TS won't be much faster and will start to over heat after a few cuts.

Originally Posted by Albert

Hi Matt, welcome to the forum.

regarding the saw, have you considered a bandsaw? some argue its more versatile than a tablesaw and you dont need a huge motor(ie, 3 phase 5hp) to run it and it can easily cut 100mm, if the manufacture says 95mm, its generally 95mm. cutting a stock on the boundary of a machine's capacity is not alaways a good thing... am not sure about using larger blade, you probably dont want to do that. if the manufacturer can put a larger blade on it they would have done so to attract buyers.

regarding the power, have you asked your power company about how much would it cost? I thought about putting 3 phase on my property for awhile and I even considered phase converter, but the phase converter can only go up to about 10hp and the big ones cost thousands of dollars. I thought the 3 phase would be expensive to install but turns out there is 3 phase available on my street and it only costed me $300NZD to pay the power company(well the electrician cost is another story... you need an electrician to wire it up from the street fuse box to your property)

Thanks for the replies.

To be honest I hadn't considered a bandsaw, shows how much I know I guess. It does make sense that the manufacturer would advertise with the biggest blade possible, though I thought I had read somewhere that some users had "squeezed bigger blades" onto their machines. As it turns out I work for the power company and I asked the man in the know this morning. Basically his response was that sometime ago it would have just been done but now I'm looking at around $750 for the connection. As for the electrician cost, that would be a freebie from my brother. Payment for all the time I donate to him.

Originally Posted by BobL

I think you'll find a fair bit of a difference between weathered Aussie hardwood and NZ timber.
A 12" table saw that cuts only 95mm is not the way to rip lots of weathered Aussie hardwood that is wider than 100mm.
While it is possible to rip a few pieces you will find that long term it will overload the saw.
The problem is the blade is too small and fully buried in the wood it will be cutting simultaneously with almost 1/4 of the blade in what is called a blind cut. This is not the way to be ripping lots of timber.
To rip lots of timber with a TS you really need at least the top teeth protruding from the wood and I don't believethat going to a greater powered TS will make a lot of difference with such a small blade.

I'm not sure you can even get a 4kW (5HP) single to three phase inverter but if you can it will not be cheap and you will need to have a dedicated 25A line wired into your shed to run it.

The way to rip these in a home workshop is with a big (19"+) bandsaw and a low TPI blade.
A 19" bandsaw doesn't actually cut 19" wide but has a 19" throat but it should cut 12" wide boards in a single pass.
A 3HP BS would do this easily, it won't be fast but it will do it all day without batting a tooth tip whereas the TS won't be much faster and will start to over heat after a few cuts.

I'd really love to have a bandsaw as well but as I'm just starting and seeing how far this hobby goes for now the table saw will have to do. I couldn't pass up on this deal though. Is it a lot of work in a small amount of time that will shorten the life of the saw or simply such hard wood over a long period? Do you think I'm getting a good deal on this saw at $300?

It sounds like your ducks are lining up.

Originally Posted by Mattress

Thanks for the replies.
To be honest I hadn't considered a bandsaw, shows how much I know I guess. It does make sense that the manufacturer would advertise with the biggest blade possible, though I thought I had read somewhere that some users had "squeezed bigger blades" onto their machines.

It's unlikely that a 14" can be squeezed onto this saw.

As it turns out I work for the power company and I asked the man in the know this morning. Basically his response was that sometime ago it would have just been done but now I'm looking at around $750 for the connection

That's cheap, real cheap - do it!

. As for the electrician cost, that would be a freebie from my brother. Payment for all the time I donate to him.

Even cheaper!

I'd really love to have a bandsaw as well but as I'm just starting and seeing how far this hobby goes for now the table saw will have to do. I couldn't pass up on this deal though. Is it a lot of work in a small amount of time that will shorten the life of the saw or simply such hard wood over a long period? Do you think I'm getting a good deal on this saw at $300?

It's definitely a good deal. Go ahead and try the ripping - you'll see/hear the motor straining and maybe stalling, overheating and then tripping out. You could treat the motor as a consumable and just keep replacing it as they die.

You may be able to get someone else's just to break up the wood into more manageable pieces so they will go though your saw easier

Originally Posted by Mattress

Thanks for the replies.

To be honest I hadn't considered a bandsaw, shows how much I know I guess. It does make sense that the manufacturer would advertise with the biggest blade possible, though I thought I had read somewhere that some users had "squeezed bigger blades" onto their machines. As it turns out I work for the power company and I asked the man in the know this morning. Basically his response was that sometime ago it would have just been done but now I'm looking at around $750 for the connection. As for the electrician cost, that would be a freebie from my brother. Payment for all the time I donate to him.



I'd really love to have a bandsaw as well but as I'm just starting and seeing how far this hobby goes for now the table saw will have to do. I couldn't pass up on this deal though. Is it a lot of work in a small amount of time that will shorten the life of the saw or simply such hard wood over a long period? Do you think I'm getting a good deal on this saw at $300?

$300 is really cheap, get it before someone else get in before you.

regarding the connection get it done when you need it...

So I've committed to buy. Pick up this weekend.

I rang the connections department at work today and was told $506 for the 3 phase upgrade from mains to house connection. Then it's up to me to supply and fit the rest of the gear. I assume all going well I'm up for around $700-$800 total. It's not a huge amount but again I'm just starting and may not buy any other 3 phase machines. So I think at this stage I'll find and fit a single phase motor hopefully for around $300-$350.

Thanks again for the advice. Will see how I go ripping this timber....

I'll echo BobL in saying go the 3 phase. Def for that price.

I'm an industrial electrician and single phase motors over about 2hp really don't exist in my world. Greater efficiency, more torque, smoother operation, smaller motors and a lot less noise out of a 3 phase setup.

It'll also give you a lot more scope for good quality second hand equipment in the future.

If I was putting together a new workshop, 3 phase power would be the first thing I'd do.

I got a letter in the mail from the power company some 10(?) years ago asking if I wanted 3 phase.

I was definitely interested and asked the price. It was $9000!

Needless to say, I did not proceed.

I also agree what has been said above, get the 3ph on at least to the house, wiring from there on can be done later, I was lucky here in that 3ph was already connected so my machines are 3ph or have been converted.
Ripping those 100x100 on a TS will be hard work for man and machine, a bandsaw is a better choice of machine and better still if you can setup infeed and outfeed tables/rollers/sleds if you do it by yourself or get that brother to give you a hand

Pete

Originally Posted by pjt

I also agree what has been said above, get the 3ph on at least to the house, wiring from there on can be done later, I was lucky here in that 3ph was already connected so my machines are 3ph or have been converted.
Ripping those 100x100 on a TS will be hard work for man and machine, a bandsaw is a better choice of machine and better still if you can setup infeed and outfeed tables/rollers/sleds if you do it by yourself or get that brother to give you a hand

Pete

agreed on the band saw, I have used my bandsaw last night for the 2nd time ( also the very 2nd time in my life), resawing and ripping a 200mm block of wood. it was like cutting jelly with a very sharp knife, I cant imagine ripping any timber thats bigger than 100mm on my combination machine altho it has a 14inch blade.

Installing 3 phase is definitely good thing... future proof it, and as mentioned before, you can get very nice second hand 3 phase machinery for fraction of cost. Just start following auctions... good used 3 phase tools pop up quite often

That table saw is pretty good deal... just make sure arbour is straight and then you need to spend some time aligning it
Table saw is one of basic tools to have..
Now if it comes with 305 mm blade.. generally it is not recommended to go larger than that..
but in case you decide to risk it i would consider following
First thing will be that you will have to change cover that is placed over the blade
Second thing is.. you need to check whether larger blade will interfere with the splitter (located directly behind the blade) or the botton or with the tilting mechanism.. have to be very careful with that...

If the machine capacity is 95mm , then that is maximum capacity...
Cutting those 100mm planks will definitely quickly overheat machine... you will have to do half and half .. so cut in two passes

Investing in band saw is also good idea.. both are parts of basic machine set to have in your shed...
I've got 14" band saw and it can take 250mm high cut.. so ripping your 100x100 will be as easy as setting the fence to desired size and passing the plank through...
Additionally having band saw opens up lots of new options when working on your projects...
As you start working on your projects you will very quickly find limitations of machines you have...
Also highly recommended to consider getting dust collector sooner than later... keeps your shop clean and your lungs healthy

I'm sure this thing weighs a tonne, my 2 brothers and I struggled to get it off the ute. But it's now home and I've nearly blown what looks like 10 years of dust out of it. The blade is shot and the cord is cut, but both an easy fix. Next is to find a guard and riving knife as well as some bolt on casters as I'd like to be able to move it around. It came with the original manual and a 3 phase plug but it's 40 amp so useless.

As for the 3 phase, it's getting cheaper and cheaper with everyone I talk to seeming to have spares or leftovers. Another win was finding 3 conduits into the shed. One under the house is labelled "spares to shed". Hopefully the conduit won't be busted anywhere and it'll be an easy pull through to the shed.