Thread: Should I buy a combination machine

Back in the days of the 1960's my father built a table saw using angle iron from beds and a Hoover washing machine motor and a plummer block to mount the blade on and we used it to build a house, how times have changed. My apologies for going off topic but it brings back memories of simpler times.

It has been 8 years since I last posted about combination machine, my shop looks quite different compare to 8 years ago.

Combi is good if you have your rhythm, otherwise you are just back and forth setting up your machine, which can be very time consuming - ESPECIALLY the spindle moulder - I never used much of my spindle moulder when I had my Robland. its a shame. Spindle moulder can be a very versatile machine.

There are combination machines where you get a panel saw and a spindle moulder in one package - its up to you but personally I dont like them because you spend 15 minutes setting up your spindle moulder, you make that one cut, and you remembered you need to use the panel saw....

I have moved away from combination machine due to workload. I was at the cross road of Felder vs SCM, I have bought new machines from Felder and SCM, both offer great after sale service where I am. Lower end of Felder say the Hammer variant can be quite expensive (for what it is) from what I have seen recently.

I think you cant go wrong with Felder's CF741 series if you are serious about it, Felder is very good with their combination machines (they started their business in making combination machine). SCM is probably more industrious and not for hobbyist... I loved my Robland NX410, back then it was good value considering I bough it under 20k, SCM's CU410 Elite was at 35k, and Felder CF741 was around 40k - obviously the prices go up with your specifications.

Thanks for the information all, is very useful.

Am on a budget and am conscious of not overspending, am really just looking for something that does what I need to without all the bells and whistles, am not one to buy a Ferrari which may look great but is totally impractical and is still limited to the same speed maximum's that apply to any other car, really don't need a car that can do over 300Kph ! any more than I need a $30k plus combo machine.

The Felder Hammer quote came in this morning at $24k ex GST, delivery and set up.....is double my budget so leaves me with 2 choices the SCM Minimax C30 Genius and the Robland HZ310 pro bothe of which are available and come fitted with a spiral cutter head.

The Minimax is around 12k with an additional $1000.00 for delivery and set up, comes from a local distributor that provide after sales service which is great, have been in the warehouse and have seen the machine, the set up includes a 2 hour demo as well. The down side is the 2.5Hp motors compared to the 3Hp for Robland and the rip and cross cut capacity compared to the Robland which is 540 v 640 and 1200 v 1600 respectively. The Robland can also be fitted with a table extension taking the cut length to 2100 which I am currently seeking a price for.

All in all am leaning towards the Robland as will suit my needs better but am concerned about their after sales service, will pull the trigger tomorrow as need a day to ruminate as is a lot of money to spend hoever will get some of it back in selling my current joiner, thicknesser and cabinet saw.

Cheers,

Rudy

The Robland came in at around $13,500 with additional delivery fees and no set up option, they don't have a service capacity in house which they outsource to an ex employee

Rudy, it is not obvious to me as to why you are looking at a combination machine. I admit I don't like them and when I first spoke to Felder about my buying two separate machines the first thing they did was suggest a combination machine was a better approach but no sale on that idea mainly because I don't think I am organised enough in my work methods. Buying separate machines, say a short stroke slider or even a longer one and a planer thicknesser would allow a more flexible approach on brand and timing and also which one you started with and maybe buying second hand if that approach appeals to you. With the amount of European machines sold in the last decade to hobbyist they must be starting to appear on the second hand market I would think and I know Felder often have them for sale.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Rudy, it is not obvious to me as to why you are looking at a combination machine. I admit I don't like them and when I first spoke to Felder about my buying two separate machines the first thing they did was suggest a combination machine was a better approach but no sale on that idea mainly because I don't think I am organised enough in my work methods. Buying separate machines, say a short stroke slider or even a longer one and a planer thicknesser would allow a more flexible approach on brand and timing and also which one you started with and maybe buying second hand if that approach appeals to you. With the amount of European machines sold in the last decade to hobbyist they must be starting to appear on the second hand market I would think and I know Felder often have them for sale.

Good question Chris, main reason is space limitations, my workspace is located in an old Victorian farmhouse that sits on our property as the original homestead which was built in around 1880, whilst I have a fair bit of square meterage due to the configuration of the rooms and level changes my actual workspace is limited to the original loungeroom and adjacent bedroom in an L configuration. To deal with this all of my gear sits on castors and am constantly having to shuffle things around as I need them which is time consuming and has become very annoying. Did a dry run on the Minimax a few days ago and was impressed at how quickly the change over process from thicknesser to jointer was.

Also made the mistake of buying a cabinet saw a few years ago and thing a sliding saw would much better suit my purposes so would kill 2 birds with one stone, there are many different and quite polar views on this one so really need to make the call based on what it is that I think will work for me.

Cheers,

Rudy

Originally Posted by Rudyvm

Thanks for the information all, is very useful.

Am on a budget and am conscious of not overspending, am really just looking for something that does what I need to without all the bells and whistles, am not one to buy a Ferrari which may look great but is totally impractical and is still limited to the same speed maximum's that apply to any other car, really don't need a car that can do over 300Kph ! any more than I need a $30k plus combo machine.

The Felder Hammer quote came in this morning at $24k ex GST, delivery and set up.....is double my budget so leaves me with 2 choices the SCM Minimax C30 Genius and the Robland HZ310 pro bothe of which are available and come fitted with a spiral cutter head.

The Minimax is around 12k with an additional $1000.00 for delivery and set up, comes from a local distributor that provide after sales service which is great, have been in the warehouse and have seen the machine, the set up includes a 2 hour demo as well. The down side is the 2.5Hp motors compared to the 3Hp for Robland and the rip and cross cut capacity compared to the Robland which is 540 v 640 and 1200 v 1600 respectively. The Robland can also be fitted with a table extension taking the cut length to 2100 which I am currently seeking a price for.

All in all am leaning towards the Robland as will suit my needs better but am concerned about their after sales service, will pull the trigger tomorrow as need a day to ruminate as is a lot of money to spend hoever will get some of it back in selling my current joiner, thicknesser and cabinet saw.

Cheers,

Rudy

The Robland came in at around $13,500 with additional delivery fees and no set up option, they don't have a service capacity in house which they outsource to an ex employee

Think you cant go wrong with either Robland or SCM, dont spent too much now. motor HP actually dont really matter that much however your tooling will be a lot more important. the rip 540vs640. do you do sheet goods? do you cut long timer on your panel saw? does the extra 100mm matter? the cross cut 1600 vs 1200, sure the cross cut mitre fence can extend on the 1200?

A saw whether it is a slider or a cabinet saw requires the same infeed and outfeed space if cutting sheet goods and a short stroke slider without an outrigger installed is actually smaller in foot print than most cabinet saws due to the rip fence being shorter. The outrigger can be removed and re-installed very quickly on my Hammer K3 Winner and I owned the saw for some years before I added it for a job I was asked to do. I can't speak for MM saws but the Hammer/Felder saws can be bought as a basic machine and all options for them added as needed later on. Buying the outrigger later on actually was an advantage as I finished up with two crosscut fences which makes the machine much more versatile for different operations such as parallel cutting on the slider.

There has been a few comments in the forum about some problems with after sales service from MM in Australia and a search might find them. I have a MM bandsaw and found it difficult to get a response from the then agents Gabbets but that was many years ago so hopefully things have changed for the better.

Originally Posted by Rudyvm

Hi All, came across this old thread, am currently looking at a Hammer/Minimax/Robland combination machine and was wondering if any out there could give me the benefit of their more recent experience with these units. They all come with a spiral option and whilst am conscious of price am thinking long term so do want a unit that will suit my longer term needs. The Robland seems the best option but is also the most expensive by some distance. Will be most using to make benchtops and tables from recycled Australian hardwoods so the ability to rip and thickness lengths of up to around 2400mm effectively is my main priority.

Would appreciate any thoughts on the above.'

Cheers,

Rudy

Hi Rudy

Firstly a warning about machining recycled timber - it will become an expensive exercise if you hit a nail.

I cannot compare with other combination machines or makes, but can support the choices I made starting 10 years ago. At that time I purchased a Hammer N4400 bandsaw, then about 6 years ago a Hammer A3-31 jointer/thicknesser, and about 4 years ago a Hammer K3 slider. Note that I am a serious amateur woodworker of some 30-odd years experience, and have had other machines in this time. I work predominantly with WA hardwoods, as well as other Aussie and USA timbers.

All these machines have functioned like a dream throughout their time. I find them to be solid in construction, reliable, and work exactly as advertised. In particular, since you ask about combination machines, the A3-31 with carbide inserts leaves a superior finish. There is no ripples, chatter or snipe. The changer over from jointer to thicknesser is quick but, as others have mentioned, it helps to be organised and plan your work. Actually, I do not have an issue here, and what I mean is that one learns this from the machine.

I use the jointer without the bed extension seen here ...



Fitting into half a double garage ...




The K3 is a short stroke slider (the wagon is 1250mm long, but it cuts 1350), with a great rip fence and crosscut fence. As Chris mentioned, the footprint is really quite small - much smaller than the contractor saw it replaced.

My K3 has received a number of accessories, including a router table, making it a combination machine as well ...





Regards from Perth

Derek

I still regard MM machines as better value for money compared to Hammer/Felder despite owning two Hammer machines. When I bought my slider I was not aware of Minimax and when I bought the A3 it was a very long protracted decision & Hammer got the nod only because MM could not supply a spiral head at that time only the Tersa. While the Tersa is excellent and possibly gives a better finish than the spiral head I was over straight blades due to if they get knicked the blade needs replacing. I actually priced fitting a spiral to the MM machine but by the time I did that it was ball park on the price and the warranty would be void.

Thanks again all, have had to lock myself in a cupboard for the last few days to stop myself from making an impulse buy, needed some clarity which hopefully I now have.

Spent some of that time thinking about my shed layout and how I can make it work more efficiently and came to the realisation that my current Carbatec table saw is perfectly acceptable and am able to locate it in single place permanently however will need to save space elsewhere so have decided to run with the planer/thicknesser option and offload by current 6 inch Sherwood helical planer and Dewalt 735 thicknesser fitted with a Shelix.

Have landed with a choice between Felder and Minimax with two competing options.

- Felder 531 OR Minimax FS EXI, similar machines, both priced around the same at $16k however the Minimax has an extra 90mm cutting width which is nice but don't really need.
- Hammer A3 31 at around $11k or the Minimax FS CX1 at around $14k, similar specifications and same increased cutter width on the Minimax.

For some perspective have been a weekend warrior for a few years now and in my mid fifties am fortunate enough to be able to slowly move into the next phase of my life, run my own one man consulting business and am looking to slowly progress from 6 days a week to none. This will of course free up more and more time which I am looking to spend in my workshop.

Have over the last few years made a few tables, benchtops and other bits and pieces and am looking to do a lot more of this kind of thing and already have a few people interested in me making things for them however my existing planer and thicknesser are just not up the the task and need to go next level.

All my projects use recycled timber and have had the experience of hitting the odd nail, doesn't matter how hard you look will also miss one at some point.

The information you have all provided is much appreciated and am very grateful for it and just have a few more queries which will hopefully make the decision making process much easier.

- The Hammer A3-31 seems like a very capable unit so is it worth spending an extra $6-7k on the Felder/Minimax option ?.

- After sales service is a big issue for me in case something goes wrong, the Minimax distributor in Melbourne JC Walsh seem great, have been into visit them once and am going back on Monday as they have the unit I am looking at in stock albeit a 3 phase rather than 1 phase unit which is what need. They seem quite professional and was pretty impressed with their set up as they employ their own technicians which is very reassuring. Have not idea about Felder as they don't seem to have feet on the ground.

- The Felder/Hammer are the only machines that come with extension table for the planer, as I plane lengths of to 3m or so this is key, have had to hand make table extensions on my Sherwood as was finding it impossible to plane accurately.

Think that will do it for now and would really appreciate any additional feedback.

Cheers,

Rudy

Rudy, the A3 with the in handle measurement gauge is ridiculously accurate and mine lives with an extension table on the planer outfeed but be warned attaching it and getting it set up is an exercise in frustration. If the budget stretches to a machine with power lift then go for it but I doubt that the result will be any better when the timber comes out of the machine. I with help from someone else have developed a power lift with digital control and measurement for my A3 but it is yet to be fitted. In practise if only used sporadically the winding of the handle may not worry you too much but if used day in day out I would buy a machine with power lift and digital measurement.

I just had a look at a video for the Felder 531 and it uses the same height measurement instrument as the Hammer A3. Some owners of the A3 have criticised the fence and while it is not the best piece of engineering I find it OK for the job but the MM is far nicer from memory. As I sid previously it was this exact decision I had trouble making when I bought mine but now the MM has a spiral head so the decision would now be harder. I can't believe the rise in price since I bought my A3, it has near enough to doubled over the last 7 years.

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Rudy, the A3 with the in handle measurement gauge is ridiculously accurate and mine lives with an extension table on the planer outfeed but be warned attaching it and getting it set up is an exercise in frustration. If the budget stretches to a machine with power lift then go for it but I doubt that the result will be any better when the timber comes out of the machine. I with help from someone else have developed a power lift with digital control and measurement for my A3 but it is yet to be fitted. In practise if only used sporadically the winding of the handle may not worry you too much but if used day in day out I would buy a machine with power lift and digital measurement.

I just had a look at a video for the Felder 531 and it uses the same height measurement instrument as the Hammer A3. Some owners of the A3 have criticised the fence and while it is not the best piece of engineering I find it OK for the job but the MM is far nicer from memory. As I sid previously it was this exact decision I had trouble making when I bought mine but now the MM has a spiral head so the decision would now be harder. I can't believe the rise in price since I bought my A3, it has near enough to doubled over the last 7 years.

Thanks for the reply Chris, would love a power lift but that is getting into serious territory price wise and am not sure that is justifiable for the kind of work I will be doing.

Am interested in the table extension though, have it included in the pricing for the Felder and Hammer but from the photos on their website they look quite flimsy....other than the annoyance of setup do they perform ok once levelled ?.

Once the table is set up it never moves and it is a very solid item, Fence Furniture was very descriptive when he fitted his.

Originally Posted by Rudyvm

Thanks again all, have had to lock myself in a cupboard for the last few days to stop myself from making an impulse buy, needed some clarity which hopefully I now have.

Spent some of that time thinking about my shed layout and how I can make it work more efficiently and came to the realisation that my current Carbatec table saw is perfectly acceptable and am able to locate it in single place permanently however will need to save space elsewhere so have decided to run with the planer/thicknesser option and offload by current 6 inch Sherwood helical planer and Dewalt 735 thicknesser fitted with a Shelix.

Have landed with a choice between Felder and Minimax with two competing options.

- Felder 531 OR Minimax FS EXI, similar machines, both priced around the same at $16k however the Minimax has an extra 90mm cutting width which is nice but don't really need.
- Hammer A3 31 at around $11k or the Minimax FS CX1 at around $14k, similar specifications and same increased cutter width on the Minimax.

For some perspective have been a weekend warrior for a few years now and in my mid fifties am fortunate enough to be able to slowly move into the next phase of my life, run my own one man consulting business and am looking to slowly progress from 6 days a week to none. This will of course free up more and more time which I am looking to spend in my workshop.

Have over the last few years made a few tables, benchtops and other bits and pieces and am looking to do a lot more of this kind of thing and already have a few people interested in me making things for them however my existing planer and thicknesser are just not up the the task and need to go next level.

All my projects use recycled timber and have had the experience of hitting the odd nail, doesn't matter how hard you look will also miss one at some point.

The information you have all provided is much appreciated and am very grateful for it and just have a few more queries which will hopefully make the decision making process much easier.

- The Hammer A3-31 seems like a very capable unit so is it worth spending an extra $6-7k on the Felder/Minimax option ?.

- After sales service is a big issue for me in case something goes wrong, the Minimax distributor in Melbourne JC Walsh seem great, have been into visit them once and am going back on Monday as they have the unit I am looking at in stock albeit a 3 phase rather than 1 phase unit which is what need. They seem quite professional and was pretty impressed with their set up as they employ their own technicians which is very reassuring. Have not idea about Felder as they don't seem to have feet on the ground.

- The Felder/Hammer are the only machines that come with extension table for the planer, as I plane lengths of to 3m or so this is key, have had to hand make table extensions on my Sherwood as was finding it impossible to plane accurately.

Think that will do it for now and would really appreciate any additional feedback.

Cheers,

Rudy

Rudy, Best way is to put your hand on both SCM/Minimax and Felder/Hammer, see if you can talk to a service technician for Felder and SCM, hear what they have to say about both machine, I can go on pages and pages but this is how I made my decision between SCM/Felder.

Dont let the price tag fooled you, with machinery, you pay what you get. if you get your timing right, you should get a good discount from SCM or Felder.

by the way, you can get Aigner extension to fit SCM machine,