Thread: Carbon coating your table saw surface

Originally Posted by D.W.

But, instead, he used the event to flog how great the stuff was anyway, probably because he had a contract that said he had to do a certain number of videos to get referral revenue, bonuses or a payment to do videos in the first place.

A very cynical reply from someone who hasn't tried the product, but I admit that in some cases influencers do receive kick backs, inducements etc and I do take some of them with a grain of salt but I watched 3 different Youtube videos on this, including an Aussie one, and decided I had to try this myself despite the expense. So all I did was to report back on my findings and no I didn't get any kickbacks and wasn't paid to give my opinion and I paid for this out of my own money. I've used most of the methods over many years for cleaning and coating cast iron surfaces and I've found Carbon Coat is the best for keeping the surface clean, rust free and smooth but most importantly requiring less maintenance. If you want to take my comments with a grain of salt then that's fine or you have a favourite method that works for you then that's fine too but all I did is report back hoping this might help someone.

Originally Posted by barri

A very cynical reply from someone who hasn't tried the product, but I admit that in some cases influencers do receive kick backs, inducements etc and I do take some of them with a grain of salt but I watched 3 different Youtube videos on this, including an Aussie one, and decided I had to try this myself despite the expense. So all I did was to report back on my findings and no I didn't get any kickbacks and wasn't paid to give my opinion and I paid for this out of my own money. I've used most of the methods over many years for cleaning and coating cast iron surfaces and I've found Carbon Coat is the best for keeping the surface clean, rust free and smooth but most importantly requiring less maintenance. If you want to take my comments with a grain of salt then that's fine or you have a favourite method that works for you then that's fine too but all I did is report back hoping this might help someone.

barri - no slight to the purchasers intended on my railing, but rather to the pushers.

Originally Posted by Albert

I was going to get it but after converting the unit, 30mil for $100!? that stuff is mass produced probably cost $1 to make 1m3

I can't tell what's in it other than silanes, and other mentions of SiO2, which is the same thing that's in silica based sharpening stones.

I doubt this has any potential for interfering with finishes, but micronized silica is not expensive. doing a lot of marketing and sponsoring people like the wood whisperer probably is. In the world of guitar stuff, guys with a couple of hundred thousand dollars used to be able to (probably still can) get $10k of compensation out of a two or three video sponsorship thing for videos with three tiers- flat fee, then link revenue (if someone has a link from their video to the product they're talking about, they're a pig - no way around it), and then incentive bonuses of volume is higher than a certain amount to incent the sponsored video maker to go above and beyond and really pushed the stuff.

If I was even more cynical than I actually am, I would make a parody video of the wood whisperer and put shellac on a drill press table and pour water on it and walk away.

if anyone is hot and heavy to find micronized particles of silica, they can just google it. Find something below that's 10 nanometers or whatever and you're in. it's cheap. It may be a little less easy to figure out how to make it something that you can spray, but I'm not sure that matters that much if it's really cheap - just add it to a high durability finish and lay it on your TS top thin.

Even submicron alumina is cheap here - $50 a pound or so. the nano SiO2 is less than that.

I wouldn't be surprised if silane and siloxane concrete products were also super, but it's like the mvmt watch thing - if you're going to be paying for sponsored videos all over the place, you need a $2 watch movement and another $5 for the watch and a buyer at $150 to make the whole thing work. And you have to put enough money into marketing to really get people to flog the notion that the watch is $150, but it's on sale.

The idea that this is sold as a finish to cover other finishes on wood at the price it costs is really baffling to me. Once again, shellac as the transition to a whole host of really super hard finishes that are a lot cheaper would be smarter. Those super hard finishes are all solvent and water resistant.

Another video worth watching ..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0oARF_W5uk for those interested.

It was his original video (he said he paid for it himself) that got me interested in the first place and I had no regrets buying this given the results and I will buy more when I run out. As for the price, it is expensive but what's considered overly expensive for some is worth it for others. While the container is small it goes along way. I've done 4 coats on my table saw, bandsaw and spindle sander and have enough left over to do a few top up coats to last a few years.

Also one of their other products, Carbon Glide, designed to be used over Carbon Coat really does provide a really slick surface. Its similar but in my view better than Bostik's glide coat which is no longer available in Australia. Its the combination of the 2 products that provide the long term protection. They also have a cleaning product meant to be used before using Carbon Coat but I didn't find that revolutionary.

Originally Posted by barri

Another video worth watching ..... Carbon method 9 months later - YouTube for those interested.

It was his original video (he said he paid for it himself) that got me interested in the first place and I had no regrets buying this given the results and I will buy more when I run out. As for the price, it is expensive but what's considered overly expensive for some is worth it for others. While the container is small it goes along way. I've done 4 coats on my table saw, bandsaw and spindle sander and have enough left over to do a few top up coats to last a few years.

Also one of their other products, Carbon Glide, designed to be used over Carbon Coat really does provide a really slick surface. Its similar but in my view better than Bostik's glide coat which is no longer available in Australia. Its the combination of the 2 products that provide the long term protection. They also have a cleaning product meant to be used before using Carbon Coat but I didn't find that revolutionary.

So, I did a little looking. His videos have an affiliate link in them. The commission rate is 20% (!!!). When he says he paid for it, its meaningless if he's picking products to promote just because the affiliate programs pay 5 to 10 times as much as Amazon references. This is reality. These guys are all pigs, and when they get you to post their yt for discussion, it brings even more people to their reference token. When you go there through him, the site blocks your computer from other tokens to make sure if he sent you there first and you come back later, he still gets the commission.

Guys like him and numbs have staff or they spend their time looking for affiliate programs that pay the most and then they pretend they just chanced on a product. You're the product for them and someone else is the customer. It's just the way things are and the sooner you start looking for unique links in the video description, the sooner you'll figure out just how big of pigs these guys are. It's a one way street with a fake "hi friends" vibe.

Originally Posted by D.W.

These guys are all pigs,

So is he lying? Does he honestly believe in the product? How do you know? I agree with him having used the product so just maybe he does believe in the product. You are basically painting all influencers as not being completely honest and that's plain wrong. I've bought plenty of things over the years, not just woodwork, from You Tube videos from presenters with vested interests and some without with nearly all of them giving me the same results as shown by the presenter.

Of course all buyers should do their homework and follow the motto "buyer beware" but your anti YT pushers/influencers is not helping anyone who might be interested in this product or any other products for that matter.

How about we focus more on the merits or bad aspects of this product which is why I started this thread.

Originally Posted by barri

So is he lying? Does he honestly believe in the product? How do you know? I agree with him having used the product so just maybe he does believe in the product. You are basically painting all influencers as not being completely honest and that's plain wrong. I've bought plenty of things over the years, not just woodwork, from You Tube videos from presenters with vested interests and some without with nearly all of them giving me the same results as shown by the presenter.

Of course all buyers should do their homework and follow the motto "buyer beware" but your anti YT pushers/influencers is not helping anyone who might be interested in this product or any other products for that matter.

How about we focus more on the merits or bad aspects of this product which is why I started this thread.

OK, the price is inflated for both the cost of significant marketing and repackaging, including a 20% commission to people who are selling stuff through revenue links.

I'm sure you're not feeling great that I picked your thread to point this stuff all out, and it's not really that important that it's this particular product, so don't take it personally.

the issue is more to do with the lack of awareness and real mindset that you or everyone else really gets into when they think they're getting honest unbiased opinions about things from third party "trusted" sources.

If you're wondering what tipped me off to this, here's what it is - two fold. First, the blue trend honing fluid. It's a farce. I had looked at SDS before then, but that really got me looking and thinking because of the obscene price and the pushiness of trend and their salespeople to tell everyone you can't use anything else without the ability to say why. so I looked at the SDS and then I sent it to a chemist i know well. He said something like "this is a few dollars a gallon to make". At the time, the bottle price split up was something like $300 a gallon. That it was needed was being parroted online. I posted the items in the SDS on a trend video and they took it down. I believe their diamond plate is also a highly marketed $7 per chinese diamond plate that is sold under other brands for a third to a fifth of their price, but that's another story. It replaced Ezelap and DMT for a lot of vendors for a simple reason - the latter just have too much wrapped up in the cost of the product to compete, even though they were sold for less. I confronted Cosman about this and he claimed that it costs him the same to get as DMT. Is he being honest? I don't know. I consider his business model a bit sleazy but I think he's honest.

For the referral stuff, I'm a pattern recognizer. Aside from being able to go look at the SDS and see that you're rarely getting much when you pay a lot for something like this (you can just go get components and make it once and be set for the rest of your life if you really like the stuff), I have a small YT channel with the ads turned off. The nonsense that I get as email urging me to join creator conferences and change the way my channel is set up (or was, I don't make videos at this point) was obnoxious, and every time I'd get an email (how did these popup retailers even know my email address- it's not linked to my YT channel) about how this or that site was offering promotional affiliate commissions of "up to 35% with a 48-hour window on original click throughs", I'd go look on youtube and the whole group of people like spagnulo or whoever else, all the way down to complete hack small timers - the stuff was everywhere.

There is almost nothing on YT that has to do with educating you or me to get the same performance or more and invest in ourselves or the materials to make things vs. all of the absolute nonsense prevailing in tool care, dust collection imported components, overpriced hard wax finishes, etc.

Do yourself a favor - start looking at the videos a little more closely. See if people show that the video is sponsored, or if they do something scummy and claim the video is sponsored by someone else so they can pretend like it isn't the product being touted, and then you find a separate video with the two items switched - so that two products have both sponsored videos, but the creator claims every video is not sponsored by the product being reviewed. And then look in the comments for the link to the product and hover over it and see if it has nonsense characters after it, or the words "token" or "ref".

All of these creators are out there looking at different affiliate programs, buying the products if the company doesn't contact them first and then trying to say "hey, here's a video of your product, I'd like to see if you're interested in a sponsorship deal". They're not buying the products because they just want to "try something new and interesting for their friends".

it's a devious business model because it takes the old guy with the company shirt and headset that you knew was a huckster and replaces him with some guy who is farming you, and whose existence is trying to get people to like him so that he can farm them. It's antisocial at the very least, and because people feel like they have a digital relationship with someone they prefer, it actually creates a barrier where if someone like me points out reality, I am the one who is resented (I don't actually care that much about that).

Used care salesmen are more honest and transparent than that.

the kind old standby for all of these bourbon people and stumpy numbs and spagnulo and others is to link amazon reference tokens. they probably all consider them low paying since they're something like 2-4% commission on whatever you're directed to, but gold mines like the spate of chinese tools (roundover planes, etc) that come with a 35% affiliate commission because a website is trying to get market share come up from time to time. You should ask spagnulo how much money he's gotten from his affiliate program with carbon method and see what he says. at 20%, it's probably enormous amounts.

No matter what I've discussed ever anywhere, I've always been careful to mention it or post a link that has no revenue token. it's filthy, and it creates a world where you only see a small slice of what's out there and intentional comparisons without things that would best fit you and leave you with more money for materials. Ultimately, once someone gets to the point that they're spending money on good materials in this hobby (wood, finishing supplies, etc - that's the sweet spot. They are high cost and low margin - you'll never get to that stuff watching youtube, but you can end up spending money on nonsense to line the pocket of hucksters).

Imagine the difference on forums if we were teaching each other how to avoid this stuff and taking on actually differentiating things rather than just passing it along.

I brought up rubio - why are there so many videos where people are trying to push folks to rubio monocoat when a urethane finish would be better for almost everything they demonstrate (and cheaper?)

Rubio Monocoat USA Affiliate Program - Post Affiliate Pro

because they can put up a link and get 5%. if you go out and buy $150 of rubio stuff after you click a link, the person with the video gets $7.50.

it all kind of fits the same pattern. Rubio and other high margin finish stuff has a lot of room to operate and they're aiming at a less educated market. Like the carbon method, like mvmt watches and so on. A liter of rubio with the add on component, whatever it is, is $180 (!!)

Even more appalling with that stuff (just looked up the SDS), the main bottle is probably non-toxic. The add-on container that is probably needed to make the finish harder is a pair of isocyanates. That is almost unbelievable - something that should not be used by consumers.

https://ardec.ca/media/catalog/docum...comp._B_EN.pdf

We don't get the SDS for carbon method, but it's something that should be available. For consumers to be buying isocyanates without knowing how toxic they are in the rubio is absolutely appalling, especially when the finish system touts (and affiliate literature probably tells people to mention it) that the product is zero VOC.

Originally Posted by D.W.

I'm sure you're not feeling great that I picked your thread to point this stuff all out, and it's not really that important that it's this particular product, so don't take it personally.

No I'm not taking this personally, I'm just crapped off that my thread about a product that I think is good and I wanted to pass on my experience so that it might help someone, has been completely hijacked by someone who wants to have a raving rant about the honesty and integrity of YT influencers and whether their vested interests overrides their real opinion about a product. To be honest I don't care whether they have a vested interest or not. I do my own homework and I think most woodworkers will do the same.

How about you start your own thread if you feel that strongly about it.

I think the important thing here is the OP was impressed with the performance of the product and, without inducement, was happy to bring it to the forums attention. Protecting cast iron surfaces has always been an issue and the battle continues. If a product shows potential let's hear about it. Not try to drive the messenger back into the turf.

Originally Posted by barri

No I'm not taking this personally, I'm just crapped off that my thread about a product that I think is good and I wanted to pass on my experience so that it might help someone, has been completely hijacked by someone who wants to have a raving rant about the honesty and integrity of YT influencers and whether their vested interests overrides their real opinion about a product. To be honest I don't care whether they have a vested interest or not. I do my own homework and I think most woodworkers will do the same.

How about you start your own thread if you feel that strongly about it.

Actually, I'm curious enough about this that I've ordered nano silica and I'm going to add it to a hard finish and see what it does.

the cost of the SiO2 (nano stuff) is about $14 to make half a pint of finish, by the way.

You and the next poster are right, I did get on an idealistic bender. I don't doubt that the product works, but I'm a bit farther down the line than you may be with some things (one of them is probably making finishes and evaluating what's in them because it's a never ending battle in the states as we navigate products changing due to VOC rules. All the way to products literally changing types without changing names or price). I think it's more accurate to say that people buy stuff, they try it and evaluate it for themselves but often get taken because the advice provided wasn't objective. With the current climate of YT influencers and affiliate programs, it's gotten worse.

it leads us to buy up, so to speak, rather than solve problems. Rust in a workshop isn't really a problem. I'm more interested in finding out not if nanosilica is hydrophobic (it already is by its properties in general), but if it's slick as a wear surface. It's about as hard as fully hardened steel, which is much harder than cast, so it should be more slick feeling. submicron alumina could also be used to make a very durable surface but it's more expensive than SiO2, as is graphene, and as are other submicron abrasives. So in the whole sale by affiliate world, those are going to show up less and when graphene is in a coating, it'll probably be almost nothing.

Referring to the finishes as ceramic or carbon or whatever is usually just a marketing term. I've never seen siO2 referred to as ceramic outside of this kind of stuff - and abrasive particles that are a ceramic (aluminum oxide) are many many times harder and more wear resistant.

if five people have read even parts of what I wrote above and open video descriptions and start to notice token links, though, I think that'll be great. it won't be zero people here who find it a little offensive that something with a 20% commission is being recommended, and you don't need a deal or sponsorship with affiliate programs to get paid, so all of the YT dirtballs can run around saying something isn't sponsored and still be farming you. You'll see them far sooner than anyone else because they're incented to work the algorithms as much as they can.

Originally Posted by D.W.

if five people have read even parts of what I wrote above and open video descriptions and start to notice token links, though, I think that'll be great. it won't be zero people here who find it a little offensive that something with a 20% commission is being recommended, and you don't need a deal or sponsorship with affiliate programs to get paid, so all of the YT dirtballs can run around saying something isn't sponsored and still be farming you. You'll see them far sooner than anyone else because they're incented to work the algorithms as much as they can.

i've kinda half known that a bunch of wood work youtubers just kind farm out ads for products. It is refreshing to hear the ideas coming from someone who's delved a bit deeper into it.


I still think cerakote for cast iron tables needs more looking into, as its a baked on paint finish, but alot of places don't have the oven size.

Originally Posted by havabeer69

i've kinda half known that a bunch of wood work youtubers just kind farm out ads for products. It is refreshing to hear the ideas coming from someone who's delved a bit deeper into it.


I still think cerakote for cast iron tables needs more looking into, as its a baked on paint finish, but alot of places don't have the oven size.

I think a whole lot of the products that come out have some potential merit, so it's not really a "nothing new is any good...only the old stuff is", it's just the lens that you see things through.

Since I've typed "wood whisperer" in here and google knows it, now youtube will recommend wood whisperer videos even though I have "don't recommend vidoes from this creator" or whatever. I probably have a list of 100 of those types that I've offed - if the point of the channel is to farm users for sponsors and affiliate programs, it may be entertaining and seem like it draws you in, but that's what marketing does. It's not really great information.

I've had WW on this list for a very long time and this came up last year somewhere else (?) and I looked into the stuff to see what it is, and then viewed a couple of other videos. One is a shootout with a clickbait title, and it's all of these two part wax oils where the second part is a catalyst/hardener. There is a token link to amazon or a direct token link to some of the other offerings. Put differently - no matter what you choose, he's hoping to get something out of you and the whole "went to the effort of a test" is not intellectually honest - the "test" exists only to make the reference links. '

I'm picking on WW and stumpy numbs because they're huge offenders, but almost everyone who has sort of the planes in the background that never move and a clean shop. The next step is people arguing about
who really isn't that bad or who is worse, one or the other.

does anyone think a professional woodworker's favorite clamps are the Jet clamps? I have half jet and half original german k body clamps. I hate the jets - nobody working at any rate would use them - the smoothness is poor and they're overly heavy, but in all of these "shops" current and able to reference or generate revenue is far more important.

Originally Posted by EagerBeaver71

So up until this carbon stuff came along what were you guys all using on you're table saws?.

Mine is due for a good clean and I usually do the same old spray WD40 on sand with 600grit then apply paste wax. I got some WD40 Specialist Silicone Lubricant which I might try as it states its helps
prevents rust and corrosion on metals, dunno how much is true?.

I just realised this is not Silicone based, its WD-40 Specialist Anti-Friction Dry PTFE, so perfectly fine to use on cast iron tables and other metal surfaces.