Thread: felder and hammer table saws- worth it?

I think that's a misconception about S1 vs S6 motors. Those are duty cycle ratings, meaning that an S6 motor, for maximum longevity, should only be used in applications where the motor is running 60% of the time. An S1 motor can in theory run constantly. The amperage draw, and hence horse power produced, does not decrease at any time because a motor is rated S6.

I have 3kw S6 motors on my Felder, and I don't seem to have any trouble chewing through full height cuts on Jarrah or Gum, so unless you have discovered some new rock hard species available by the truck load I can't see where an S1 motor is going to do you any good. Plus, on that little Minimax saw, the rest of the machine is not up to industrial standards. (Of mass, ease of adjustment, accuracy of slider, etc etc)

Sorry Greg. I wasn't trying to imply that your motors weren't any good. I was merely trying to point out that an S1 rated 2.5hp motor is pretty close to an S6 4.0hp motor.

Certainly, the Felder motors you own will have no hassles cutting most species of timber, but nor will the 2.5hp S1 rated motor.

And I certainly wouldn't be drawing too many comparisons between the SC2W and the Felder range of machines.

Hi Ruddigar...


Sorry, after I re-read what I wrote I realise that I came on a bit strong there. Please take no offense...I don't know what I was thinking.

Your comments about advertised motor power vs actual are good ones though. Compressor and shop vacuum motors all seem to have those amazing power ratings. My brother has a "10 h.p." shop vac that magically only draws 5 amps (at 120 volts!). (But that is in North America, where they can get away with it because they take the motor's instantaneous inrush current value and extrapolate that to the power that would be theoretically produced for those few milliseconds)

Greg

Originally Posted by gregoryq

I think that's a misconception about S1 vs S6 motors. Those are duty cycle ratings, meaning that an S6 motor, for maximum longevity, should only be used in applications where the motor is running 60% of the time. An S1 motor can in theory run constantly. The amperage draw, and hence horse power produced, does not decrease at any time because a motor is rated S6.

So why do they have S1 and S6 motors, why not just have S1 motors which can run constantly, is it an issue with cost?
Zelk

Attached is a table of what the "S" ratings mean. You can see that an S6 motor is in about the second most demanding duty cycle category.

I'm guessing that most design engineers have "min cost" as one of their goals, hence the lighter S6 motor. If you look at the definition of S6 duty cycles, it closely matches the actual load requirements of a typical woodworking machine.

I guess that a case could be made for S1 motors on dust extractors and similar machines. As a point of reference I have on one occasion run an entire cubic metre of hardwood through my Felder's planer, then thicknesser functions. The S6 motor never missed a beat, but my neighbours were pretty cranky* and I was crippled by the end of the job.

*with the dusty running (a must), it sounds approximately like an air raid siren.

Duty cycle
IEC breaks it into eight ratings:
S1 - Continuous duty. The motor works at constant load for enough time to reach temperature equilibrium.
S2 - Short-time-duty. The motor works at constant load, but not long enough to reach temperature equilibrium, and rest periods are long enough for the motor to reach ambient temperature.
S3 - Intermittent periodic duty. Sequential, identical run and rest cycle with constant load. Temperature equilibrium is never reached. Starting current has little effect on temperature rise.
S4 - Intermittent periodic duty with starting. Sequential, identical start, run and rest cycles with constant load. Temperature equilibrium is never reached, but starting current affects temperature rise.
S5 - Intermittent periodic duty with electric braking. Sequential, identical cycles of starting, running at constant load, electric braking, and rest. Temperature equilibrium is not reached.
S6 - Continuous operation with intermittent load. Sequential, identical cycles of running with constant load and running with no load. No rest period.
S7 - Continuous operation with electric braking. Sequential, identical cycles of starting, running at constant load, and electric braking. No rest period.
S8 - Continuous operation with periodic changes in load and speed. Sequential, identical duty cycles of start, run at constant load and given speed, then run at other constant loads and speeds. No rest.

Originally Posted by gregoryq

Attached is a table of what the "S" ratings mean. You can see that an S6 motor is in about the second most demanding duty cycle category.

I'm guessing that most design engineers have "min cost" as one of their goals, hence the lighter S6 motor. If you look at the definition of S6 duty cycles, it closely matches the actual load requirements of a typical woodworking machine.
temperature equilibrium. cycles with constant load.

Thanks Greg,
I still find it confusing, why would MiniMax use S1 motors whereas Felder use S6 motors on machines for the same application?
Zelk

I'm going to do some more looking for answers. On the Felder group on Yahoo this gets kicked around from time to time. No one has ever posted problems or failed motors, so I have filed this one away into the non-event category. Like anything else, maybe the manufacturer's name is more important than the duty cycle rating?

The answer may be as simple as Minimax being the offspring of SCM group, a huge company that made seriously big woodworking machines for decades before the hobby machines. Felder, on the other hand, started with hobby machines and grew into being an industrial grade machine builder. Maybe its a case of old habits? (I believe that Felder's Format4 machines have S1 motors)

I find it mildly odd that the Europeans have so many duty cycle ratings as opposed to the two grades that the Americans use. Since most of the motors that we'll ever see spew from China and have Pulitzer prize-winning data plate ratings, carefully defined specs seem like fantasy world stuff.

Greg

All this talk has got me worried.

I have a Minimax CU 300 Smart combo machine with three separate motors. I think they are all two HP, and I've never had any problems thus far.

Like most part-time woodies, I tend to use the machine infrequently, but when I do I make the most of it.

Is this kind of usage bad for the motor? Can I expect problems?

The machine is hooked up to a 10 amp lead, unlike my cheapie 10 inch Jet TS which requires 15 amp. All of it is very confusing! I would have thought the Minimax 2 HP needed as much power as the Jet 2 HP.

Jefferson

I'm trying to imagine a case where you'd be able to outwork the motor on any of these Euro machines. Seriously, I have S6 motors on my machine, and short of a gang of helpers and $10,000 worth of wood, I can't imagine outrunning the duty cycle. Minimax and Felder (and probably Robland?) use good motors-I have been haunting the various user groups for a few years now and have never heard anyone complain of a dud motor. (except various single phase bandsaws in the 120/240v world).

I thought that Minimax spec'ed 3 hp motors on the CU 300 sold here. I'll bet you've never had a case of a motor bogging down in any function short of trying to plane off a 4mm bite on a full width board with dull knives (from experience, this caper needs 10 h.p. plus )

All of these motors have thermal overload protection, so the motor should save itself if you ever ask too much from it.

One question I have is weights of various motors. I have a 7.5 hp S1 motor here that I cannot begin to lift...I wonder where exactly the difference is between S1 and S6. I can't imagine that it would be in things like bearings, as a good bearings are crazy cheap when you buy them by the thousand.

GregoryQ and crew,

You are right about rarely bogging down the motors on the Minimax. It happened once on the saw, cross cutting 300 x 50 redgum slabs when I got careless. Once also on the thicknesser when I again got careless and took a 4mm swipe in error instead of 1mm.

Not sure about the motors though. I always thought they were 3hp, but the sparky tells me they are definitely 2HP.

Academic I guess, as the combo does (mostly) what I want it to do. Fence adjustment on the sliding table is the main bugbear. I have it set perfectly at 90 degrees and am very reluctant to move it!

Shame you're not up here in Murray river border country, cause I'd get you to fine tune by d*mn bandsaw!

Still trying to fathom why the Jet 10 inch TS runs on 15amp, while the Minimax runs on 10amp.

I love the Jet with its dado head, though I have tipped it over twice with too much weight on the right side of the table. Not such problems with the Minimax - you can stand on the slide arm no worries.

Jefferson

If you have one of those clamp-type meters you can check max current draw without getting near any terminals. The Jet may be sporting a bigger motor, but that's not the whole story. (You should have bought a smaller motor so you wouldn't have those worries!! )

If in fact the minimax has 2 hp (1.5 kw) motors, and you paid for 2.2 kw, I'd be making a few calls.

What kind of bandsaw do you have?

Greg

Oh...the re-setting of fences can be problematic. If possible, make a jig out of mdf with the commonly used angles and keep your fence untouched at 90. Even an Altendorf fence is not fool proof when switching over, that's why they have a separate mitre thing. Many of the Minimax and Felder users overseas mount an Osbourne or similar mitre gauge in one of the slider's slots for small mitre duties...might be something to consider.

Cheers

Greg

Hi Gregoryq,

It seems like a long time since we spoke last and a long time since you regularly contributed to the forums -- unless I have been looking in the wrong places.

I've always learned heaps from you. Great to read your posts. Thanks.

Hi D.

I have always been happy to lead folks astray, its all part of the service here at the house of pain.

I have missed a lot of time this past year for one reason or another, and now that the warden is allowing me more time online I can again be a regular contributor

The real reason is that my laptop was suffering keyboard problems, and I was living with it for far too long, mostly lurking and not sending much at all. I have since discovered that even computer repair info and parts are available free/cheap on the net, so I am now back in business.

I guess you have your machines installed by now? How are they working out for you?

Greg

Originally Posted by jefferson

All this talk has got me worried.

I have a Minimax CU 300 Smart combo machine with three separate motors. I think they are all two HP, and I've never had any problems thus far.

Like most part-time woodies, I tend to use the machine infrequently, but when I do I make the most of it.

Is this kind of usage bad for the motor? Can I expect problems?

The machine is hooked up to a 10 amp lead, unlike my cheapie 10 inch Jet TS which requires 15 amp. All of it is very confusing! I would have thought the Minimax 2 HP needed as much power as the Jet 2 HP.

Jefferson

I wouldn't worry too much about S1 motors as Minimax have been using them for a while now without any problems.

I too, have a 4 Hp 3 ph Minimax Cu 300 classic which I took delivery of earlier this year. I know its somewhat of the topic, but, how do you like the Cu 300 compared to the Jet TS?
Zelk