Thread: is Felder really worth the extra? and other questions for home workshop

Originally Posted by Albert

I have thought about the Festool guide rail saw, but it seems a bit of time is required to set it up properly? when I cut panel I need to rip and resize constantly, hence the guide rail saw probably is not going to be suit my need.

Yeah I have thought about the panel saw and space issue, I might have to set up the machine close to the garage door but this means I can only cut panels when the garage door is open and its not raining...

I dont think I will need the 2400mm cutting capacity for the near future, but I like the 12 inch blade as i do need to cut wood greater than 90mm quite frequent.

Albert

I think you need to sit back and take stock

A panel saw and 12" blade for ripping are not really compatible.
by the time you factor in the time to change blades over and raise or lower the scribing blade, a multiple machine set up sterts to look very attracticve.

As another poster said, you need a lot of room for a panel saw -- 2.4m requires around 3m in front of the blade and 2.4m behind it plus width for the sliding table. in a 6 x 6m shop, the saw will take up almost all your floor space and it's not something you can move around as every time it moves you will need to re-square the table.

Unless you're doing lots and lots of veneer board (and have a crane to help you move them around) a track saw starts to look the most space efficient option.

as for tenons, I suggest you look at a Domino or portable (Mafael) dowelling machine -- and redesign yourt product to use their capabilities

Re festool rail system...

I have and use hilti rails with a hilti cordless saw. Hell of a lot cheaper that a festool setup. I just need to modify the hood on the blade shroud for dust extraction. Have done so in the past with very good effect, but yet to make something permanent.

Something I will also be doing shortly is a series of accurately position bench dog holes in my new assembly bench I am making. This will allow me to place rails and material up to the dogs to instantly establish a square cut and drastically reduce set-up time for each cut.

I will also add that I use/will continue to use this system predominantly for breaking down full sheets. I have an old ezycut combo that I am currently making a sliding table attachment for that will allow final trimming of components etc.

For me, necessity is the mother of invention as I am cash poor. However, I find it much more satisfying to produce work on items that I have created/modified myself. Would love a workshop filled with blingy machinery, but the novelty of good old back yard innovation is what excites me about what I do.

Craig.

A good panel saw is a dominating beast in the workshop and a poor panel saw is an annoying junk collecting bench.

If you were to think Festool, you need to think more than a couple of items to get the benefit. If you do make the leap, the added benefits of dust collection and portability will have you looking at your other power tools thinking it's time for an upgrade.

Festool is not a cheap solution and if you're only doing $10~15K gross pa of work it's possibly a steep choice - but a high end Felder isn't cheap either! The Domino (both 500 and 700XL) are game changers for assembly.

Originally Posted by ian

Albert

I think you need to sit back and take stock

A panel saw and 12" blade for ripping are not really compatible.
by the time you factor in the time to change blades over and raise or lower the scribing blade, a multiple machine set up sterts to look very attracticve.

As another poster said, you need a lot of room for a panel saw -- 2.4m requires around 3m in front of the blade and 2.4m behind it plus width for the sliding table. in a 6 x 6m shop, the saw will take up almost all your floor space and it's not something you can move around as every time it moves you will need to re-square the table.

Unless you're doing lots and lots of veneer board (and have a crane to help you move them around) a track saw starts to look the most space efficient option.

as for tenons, I suggest you look at a Domino or portable (Mafael) dowelling machine -- and redesign yourt product to use their capabilities

thanks Ian, i have bought the Domino xl700 in the last 2 days, its a game changer but it has its limit, i still require mortising and tenoning capability in my workshop as there will be time when i need to make them. probably 40 tenons every 4 weeks and all being the same size( using spindle moulder?)

Originally Posted by kevpun

A good panel saw is a dominating beast in the workshop and a poor panel saw is an annoying junk collecting bench.

If you were to think Festool, you need to think more than a couple of items to get the benefit. If you do make the leap, the added benefits of dust collection and portability will have you looking at your other power tools thinking it's time for an upgrade.

Festool is not a cheap solution and if you're only doing $10~15K gross pa of work it's possibly a steep choice - but a high end Felder isn't cheap either! The Domino (both 500 and 700XL) are game changers for assembly.

thanks kevpun. i have bought the ct36 and the xl700. you are right about the thought of upgrading my other power tools...

i might stil get that Robland nx410 as its cheaper to buy a 5 in 1 combo rather than separates.

Albert,

A friend of mine has a Domino but he also uses loose tenons which he reckons are every bit as good as the traditional ones. He built a jig for about $25 and uses one of his hand held routers. Certainly a cheap way to get around the problem.

The original question: Are Felder panel saws worth the extra? IMHO yes they are, but not to everyone. It depends on your requirements as to weather you are going to need that standard of machine. One thing to bear in mind is resale value. A Felder in good condition is always going to hold its value better than most. If the saw is not going to be used on a day to day basis it would be hard to justify spending the extra. Admittedly, this would mean a top condition saw when it came to resale ,but it would not be until resale you could justify the purchase. I run a Robland combination machine. Nowhere near the quality of a Felder but it was a cheap buy, in unused condition and fully optioned. It has never let me down. Its my second Robland and I managed to get my money back when I sold the old one, so that probably helped me decide to go again.
Provided you have the space, there is no tool more handy than a good combo as there isn't much you cant do on it. Yes, changing functions is a draw back, but its amazing how quickly this can be done once you've got the hang of it.

Albert,

I have seen this on Trademe for a while now, its a CF731 S Professional, 2nd hand used, start price of 19k, buy now of 22k. Comes with morticer, accessories, router spindle and F38 power feeder.

Felder Combination Woodworking Machine | Trade Me

P.S. I have no relation to the sale at all and don't intend to purchase it, I have just been watching it and thought it might be of interest.

Cheers,

Austin

Originally Posted by safari

Albert,

A friend of mine has a Domino but he also uses loose tenons which he reckons are every bit as good as the traditional ones. He built a jig for about $25 and uses one of his hand held routers. Certainly a cheap way to get around the problem.

hi safari, I used to own a router but sold it awhile back, I dont think I am good at handling a router with hand. maybe I just need more practice.

Originally Posted by rustynail

The original question: Are Felder panel saws worth the extra? IMHO yes they are, but not to everyone. It depends on your requirements as to weather you are going to need that standard of machine. One thing to bear in mind is resale value. A Felder in good condition is always going to hold its value better than most. If the saw is not going to be used on a day to day basis it would be hard to justify spending the extra. Admittedly, this would mean a top condition saw when it came to resale ,but it would not be until resale you could justify the purchase. I run a Robland combination machine. Nowhere near the quality of a Felder but it was a cheap buy, in unused condition and fully optioned. It has never let me down. Its my second Robland and I managed to get my money back when I sold the old one, so that probably helped me decide to go again.
Provided you have the space, there is no tool more handy than a good combo as there isn't much you cant do on it. Yes, changing functions is a draw back, but its amazing how quickly this can be done once you've got the hang of it.

hi rustynail.

agreed, I wont be using the machine on a day to day basis, at least not for now, I have bought the Robland, its my first combi, if I liked the way combi works, I might upgrade later to a Felder if I get more money from my woodworking sales.

Originally Posted by Austin_Turner

Albert,

I have seen this on Trademe for a while now, its a CF731 S Professional, 2nd hand used, start price of 19k, buy now of 22k. Comes with morticer, accessories, router spindle and F38 power feeder.

Felder Combination Woodworking Machine | Trade Me

P.S. I have no relation to the sale at all and don't intend to purchase it, I have just been watching it and thought it might be of interest.

Cheers,

Austin

Thanks Austin. yeah I saw that too, for that kind of money I probably will buy a new CF741 S Professional, plus I dont have 3 phase at the moment, I am planning to install one (for a 3 phase 900mm+ wide belt sander) the 3 phase installation is much cheaper than I expected as I have 3 phase on my street. but I have bought the Robland machine anyway.

Originally Posted by Albert

Thanks Austin. yeah I saw that too, for that kind of money I probably will buy a new CF741 S Professional, plus I dont have 3 phase at the moment, I am planning to install one (for a 3 phase 900mm+ wide belt sander) the 3 phase installation is much cheaper than I expected as I have 3 phase on my street. but I have bought the Robland machine anyway.

Sounds good Albert, let us all know how you find the Robland once you've used it for a while.

I've been doing a big chunk of work over the last 18 months.

All of it amateur. Started with silly little things and a serious tool fetish.

As word has spread I'm now getting commissions. 3 in the last week.

While I cannot replace a full time IT wage with it (yet!), I can certainly earn some very serious beer money.

I'm like you, I have a two car garage. I lucked out and found a delusional Sydney banker who had the full kit of festool, he did one bookcase, and was promptly "promoted" to Singapore after owning it 3 months. Had to sell fast, had no choice.... Low balled the bastard (payback!) and stuffed the car with festool #### for 1/4 price.

Rant aside, the festool system COMBINED with tradition stuff is amazing.

Using the rails and 55 with a big "cross hatch sheet holder" (don't know real name of jig) I can repeatedly slice full sheets of anything with absolute 1/10mm full sheet accuracy the full length. Can be set up on a table under the eves or on the TS itself if I make room.

Using the tradition cabinet TS, table router (festool) and a bunch of Incra and custom jigs I can pump out everything at full speed and awesome accuracy.

The pricing of your options is certainly high. It buys a LOT of gear.

To back me up, my brother is a finish carpenter by trade with a lot of custom kitchens and bathrooms under his belt. My father is an architect, builder and artist. They laughed at me when I started (a 40 year old soft handed IT worker) but they are now eating their hats in admission that the system works.

I make insane precision boxes, tables, chairs, chests and all manner of stuff... So I can attest that simple systems certainly work without spending $40k plus.

Originally Posted by Evanism

I've been doing a big chunk of work over the last 18 months.

All of it amateur. Started with silly little things and a serious tool fetish.

As word has spread I'm now getting commissions. 3 in the last week.

While I cannot replace a full time IT wage with it (yet!), I can certainly earn some very serious beer money.

I'm like you, I have a two car garage. I lucked out and found a delusional Sydney banker who had the full kit of festool, he did one bookcase, and was promptly "promoted" to Singapore after owning it 3 months. Had to sell fast, had no choice.... Low balled the bastard (payback!) and stuffed the car with festool #### for 1/4 price.

Rant aside, the festool system COMBINED with tradition stuff is amazing.

Using the rails and 55 with a big "cross hatch sheet holder" (don't know real name of jig) I can repeatedly slice full sheets of anything with absolute 1/10mm full sheet accuracy the full length. Can be set up on a table under the eves or on the TS itself if I make room.

Using the tradition cabinet TS, table router (festool) and a bunch of Incra and custom jigs I can pump out everything at full speed and awesome accuracy.

The pricing of your options is certainly high. It buys a LOT of gear.

To back me up, my brother is a finish carpenter by trade with a lot of custom kitchens and bathrooms under his belt. My father is an architect, builder and artist. They laughed at me when I started (a 40 year old soft handed IT worker) but they are now eating their hats in admission that the system works.

I make insane precision boxes, tables, chairs, chests and all manner of stuff... So I can attest that simple systems certainly work without spending $40k plus.

Hi Evanism, good to hear I am not alone, I am not a carpenter nor joiner, I am an engineer and I started my hobby business 4 years ago when wife asked if she can have a piece of furniture, I thought that was easy so I told her I can make it myself and by the time I finished making it, I have spent close to NZD$1000 on the tools, and to buy that piece of furniture it probably cost only $100-$200...

A full kit of Festool for 1/4 of the price.. I wish there are more "delusioned" people like that over here...

If you pay $75 you can get Avery nice Veritas rip saw which will cut tenons easily. Unless you are a high volume production workshop it would take a lot of tenons and sales to justify the cost of a dedicated machine.