Thread: Hammer K3 Winner to replace Jet 10” Supersaw with sliding table?

If you are looking for single phase, you could be waiting a loooong time for a 2nd hand Felder, if you want 3 phase there is a nice looking k700 with a long slider for only 6k on machines4u right now!

I think the quality of the slider is probably the biggest reason to get a felder, second is if you want to get a couple of the fancy options (and there are plenty). Personally I’d like the overhead saw guard, perhaps the precision mitre system for the outrigger etc.

Hi Austin thanks for your response. I do not have enough workshop space for a long slider.
2m is probably max for me but most used commercial saws are 2.4m plus with many @3.6m.
I have 3 phase so more options available but it seems every time I find a good used Felder it’s located in WA or Tasmania!

You are right it may be a long wait - even used Hammer saws are rare so owners must be reasonably happy! Also considering used SCM and Altendorf - but not many posts on this a Forum from users.

Yep that makes it tough secondhand as well, a 2.5m felder slider is my ideal when I get one in the future, for both sheets and straight line rips on big boards etc. I’m space constrained as well so making do using a track saw and cutting table for now due to not wanting to buy a small hammer then sell later (not the same, but gets the job done eventually).

I have never seen a short slider Altendorf, but perhaps they just aren’t that commonly purchased below 2.5m as well.

Whether you’ll be happy with a hammer depends on your own perception of its quality and performance, how tight your budget is, how much you use it and how long you’ll keep it. For my thoughts, tight budget, making money with it but hit the limits of the jet, buy a hammer, work it to its limits and then buy a fancy saw with DROs, servo controlled rip fence etc in two year’s time when you’ve got more money and you’re annoyed with it. Budget constrained and want to keep it for 20 years and use it in your spare time, be patient and wait for the right secondhand machine. Not really budget constrained, just trying to not be wasteful, buy the saw that will make you happy when you use it, a <2m felder/scm/altendorf in great condition secondhand may be quite a wait and the factory options can make it ‘just right’ for you.

I'm very happy with my K3. This has a 1250 (49") slider, which is long enough for my workshop and the work I do. These sliders require a goodly amount of space in front and at the rear of the saw. I do not work with sheet goods, only hardwood. If you use full sheets often, you might want to look at a longer slider.

The extra handle I added works well and does not get in the way (as some speculated).

At the time I purchased the K3, the choice was between this and a Saw Stop. As I got deeper into the mechanisms and techniques of these two saws, it became apparent that the slider was a totally different beast from a cabinet saw plus crosscut table. The slider was in a different class. The two saws are similar in terms of quality, and price if you add in the crosscut table to the Saw Stop. The K3 is a 12" blade to the 10" of the SS. That extra depth of cut is important to me.

Look up Fritz and Frans jig on Youtube, and you will understand an attraction of the slider.

With regard the shorter sliders, such as mine, I am aware that Felder will soon be releasing (if they have not already) a "jig" (add on accessory) which will effectively increase the length of the slider one has (it is a slider that runs on the slider).



Regards from Perth

Derek

I am considering replacing my Jet table saw with a short slider.
While the Jet is basically a very good entry level saw there are a few aspects I am not happy with. This includes the limitations of the blade diameter for cutting thicker material, a very average fence and a sliding table that is too short to be really useful.

While I have been very happy with my recent Hammer A3/41 purchase, the K3 Winner while undoubtedly a step up doesn’t appear to be as well built or as well reviewed as the A3/41.

I find the need to move a single cheap plastic handle between blade tilt and blade rise adjustments a poor and annoying design. This compromise coupled with an unreliable cross cut fence stop has received criticism on YouTube from independent K3 owners.

You need to take some criticism levelled at the saw with a really big grain of salt. One I saw in particular was from an American user who had no idea what he was talking about. He complained that the slider was above the cast iron table and if he had any knowledge at all he would know the sliding table is meant to be very slightly higher than the cast iron table. He also claimed that the rip fence was set up wrong and could not be easily squared but again he did not understand that he was wrong, sorry but I forget the details on his problem with the rip fence. The CC fence now has a new adjuster to make it far easier to set it square and if ordering a new saw make sure it comes with it as part of the deal. The new fence adjuster is rock solid and does not move at all.

If you bought the in handle height indicator with you A3 you now have a second handle to add to the slider which is what I did. Felder claim that one handle is in fact an advantage due to it not getting in the way when operating the machine and to some extent they are correct as the side handle for angle change is not used as often as the height change. That's their story and they are sticking to it. Another problem the above mentioned gentleman did not understand was when he criticised the sliding table adjustment being not parallel with the blade and again he set it up like a cabinet saw and that is totally wrong, it is meant to toe out and every slider from every manufacturer is done this way. He took a sliding European saw and tried to make it the same as a US cabinet saw and because he did not read the manual and do some research he got it wrong on a lot of aspects. At this link https://youtu.be/g6sDBjty6jo?t=187 he admits he does not want to use it the way the saw was designed to be used and then went on to do his best to change it describing what he did. I hardly ever use the rip fence, all ripping is done on the slider, in fact my saw done not have a rip fence fitted at all, just a short length of the fence used as a measuring stop for the rips done on the slider. Occasionally I fit a full length rip fence when doing longer stuff about once a year.

While I can accept compromises for an initial product release I cannot understand why Felder have not addressed obvious design & construction issues raised by owners after many years production.

If referring to criticism by American cabinet saw users as above, they do not understand what they have bought and do not bother asking questions.

I notice Derek has made modifications to his K3 to address the hand wheel issue. In contrast the handwheels on the competing SawStop Industrial saw are superbly finished and all metal construction.

Derek has done a lot of stuff to his as I have.

What happened to European superior design & build quality?

It is at least equal to any Asian cabinet saw IMHO and does not do kick backs if ripping on the slider

While buying new is often the best way to go - I am inclined to hold out for a good used Felder K500 or K700 for about the same price as the Hammer K3 Winner - a completely superior build quality.

I would as well for the X roll slider but the tables are usually far longer. The Hammer saws are entry level short table saws meant for hobbyist users with limited space and a smaller budget but they do cost a premium over most cabinet saws with Saw Stop be marginally cheaper and this saw still suffers from the kick back problem.

But perhaps I am expecting too much for a new European 7.5K saw in 2019?

Yes, we have all had that dilemma. Don't forget Minimax also do equivalent sliding saws which deserve looking at as well.

you can always make space... my garage is 6m long, but my slider is 7.6m. if I want to use the full capacity, I will have to open the garage door.

but how often do I use the full capacity? not very often, but I do find the extended sliding table very very useful! I can use it for my bandsaw as well.


Bandsaw setup. still tweaking
IMG_3136.jpg

dust extraction... yes Bob I need to open up the flexi
IMG_3125.JPG

this is where the monster panel saw live, I have sold the double mitre saw next to it, the bandsaw was later moved behind the panel saw
IMG_2927.jpg

Hi Chris, thanks for your very comprehensive response!

You raise some valid criticisms of people who have not understood sliding saw alignment etc.
FYI The K3 saw I have been offered has the fine adjustment on the fence and the dado option - both usually cost more.

It’s not that I can’t live with a Hammer K3 Winner it’s just that I perceive a good used Felder (or equivalent) is better value - but with some caveats including availability and length. I thought I should get advice from the Forum before shelling out what is serious money to at least consider various options.

The K3 Winner is still on the short list(!)

I am not in woodwork for business it is purely a hobby - but one I take seriously and I prefer to buy once!
i will reflect on your considered advice and others who have responded including Derek, Austin and Albert.

If the saw you are looking at is used and not new you will have to buy the new CC fence adjuster as Felder refuse to supply it to fix a problem that was theirs due to bad design initially. This only applies if the saw was not supplied with an outrigger as standard equipment, if it had an outrigger the problem does not exist as the CC fence is on the outrigger and the zero stop is not attached to the table being on the outrigger itself. I also have the fine rip fence adjuster and then fitted a Wixey DRO for the rip fence adjustment and th combination is fantastic. Get the reading close and used the fine adjuster wheel to wind in the last bit so no more bump, move, bump a bit more etc. I bought my saw without outrigger and later added it for a big job, it costs no more to do it this way and a scribing blade can be added the same way if required, I have given thought to this but haven't had the consistent need for it. I don't now if you have seen this, it eplains where the new CC fence stop came about.

Hi Albert, thanks for taking the time to post the pictures - always good to get a “stretch” perspective(!)

One of my constraints is the width of doorways as my workshop is at the back of the house.

A big saw like yours would have to go in the garage away from my main work area which is a pain. Also the garage is cold in Winter & hot in Summer - but it’s still an option and food for thought......

The Griggio Looks like a serious machine and perhaps another brand I should consider.

Hi Warmtone,
I just wanted to share some comments relating to my own experience with using the Italian Minimax panel saws as well as downsizing to a smaller workshop. I have been using slider panel saws for over 10 years with my initial switch from a standard cabinet saw based on safety and accuracy and firstly bought a new Minimax CU 300 classic combination unit that worked just fine as I had a large workshop and space was not an issue. I mostly make furniture and boxes as well as some kitchen cabinets and the scoring blade comes in handy here. On downsizing three years ago to a 7.2x3.6 workshop I sold my larger Minimax and in looking closely at a smaller replacement unit I bought a Minimax SC-2 . Whilst a Alltendorf or Felder are usually considered the two premium brands the cost and space ruled them out. I have found the SC-2 with a scorer meets all of my needs for both occasional panel work as well as for all other uses. It is very accurate and has a smaller footprint but still has a 1660 stroke and at around $7K was excellent value. It is quick and easy to remove the squaring frame and reattach without loosing the square settings. I use m a ripping blade to produce a square edge on slabs then rip them down into smaller widths before cutting boards on my bandsaw. The 3Hp handles 50-70 mm slabs without any problem so for me I am happy to recommend this machine.
Cheers,
Paintman

Originally Posted by PaintMan

Hi Warmtone,
I just wanted to share some comments relating to my own experience with using the Italian Minimax panel saws as well as downsizing to a smaller workshop. I have been using slider panel saws for over 10 years with my initial switch from a standard cabinet saw based on safety and accuracy and firstly bought a new Minimax CU 300 classic combination unit that worked just fine as I had a large workshop and space was not an issue. I mostly make furniture and boxes as well as some kitchen cabinets and the scoring blade comes in handy here. On downsizing three years ago to a 7.2x3.6 workshop I sold my larger Minimax and in looking closely at a smaller replacement unit I bought a Minimax SC-2 . Whilst a Alltendorf or Felder are usually considered the two premium brands the cost and space ruled them out. I have found the SC-2 with a scorer meets all of my needs for both occasional panel work as well as for all other uses. It is very accurate and has a smaller footprint but still has a 1660 stroke and at around $7K was excellent value. It is quick and easy to remove the squaring frame and reattach without loosing the square settings. I use m a ripping blade to produce a square edge on slabs then rip them down into smaller widths before cutting boards on my bandsaw. The 3Hp handles 50-70 mm slabs without any problem so for me I am happy to recommend this machine.
Cheers,
Paintman

This sounds like very good value - as by comparison the Hammer K3 Winner at around 7.6K does not include the outrigger and the more robust cross fence & stops. And the 1.6m slider is a bit more useful and something I could accomodate.

Thanks for the tip - I will pursue further!

I always regarded Minimax better value which is why I mentioned them in my post.

I have just checked my invoice and can confirm the price was $6750 back in Feb 2017. SCM in Australia sell domestically via their I Like Wood company and I was able to pick up directly from SCM in Melbourne. Obviously pricing will be impacted by exchange rates so you will need to confirm the current situation. I should add that in order to keep their best pricing offers the machine comes in a heavy very secure packing crate and is only partially assembled. Fairly strait forward to complete with excellent documentation but it did take a couple of days work and lots of fine adjustments that I have not touched since. The other surprise is no saw blade is included but as I had several this was not an issue. The only extra issue I had was the location of the start switch which is not in the safest location. I had my local machine electrician install a secondary on off switch on the side just under the slider. I have also fitted a mobility kit along the lines of what SCM supply using a portable dolly/lifter system that allows me to move the unit if I need to unload heavy slabs using an overhead winch.
In the past SCM (Gabbett Machinery) did provide fully assembled machines and also included an installation engineer for a 2-3 hour setup. I think Felder still offer this type of installation service.
Cheers,
Paintman

With regards pricing, Hammer saws are like buying a modular kit that comes ready-assembled, tuned to perfection, and with terrific backup service. By kit I mean that you get what you specify. My saw started at $6500 and ended up being $8500 with the extra items. What made it worth it for me was the fact that I had two Hammer machines already, and 7 years of experience with Felder in Perth. They have always provided super back up. The best. That counts a lot. I have no knowledge of SCM, and I did not know who to contact locally.

The K3 I have has the 1250mm slider (the base version is 850mm). It is long enough for my needs. It is almost too large for my workshop (half a double garage). A 1600mm would not fit. I hear excellent report about MM, so if your space is different, and you have backup service, then definitely consider one.

Regards from Perth

Derek