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  1. #1
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    Default Heads Up to Hammer K3 Owners

    I have owned my K3 for about 6 years and I have just discovered why I have had niggling measuring problems with the CC fence for all this time. The pictures show the problem, the stops not being perpindiculer to the table/outrigger but please note this will be affected by the outrigger if it is not absolutely co-planer with the sliding table, I have spoken to Felder this morning and sent the same pictures to them and await their reply and I would be very interested if other owners have the same problem. Three stops and none of them right though the closest one is out at the top and not at the bottom as the two others are. Sorry for the sideways images but thats what happens when photos are taken in portrait apparently.



    IMG_2443.jpgIMG_2444.jpgIMG_2442.jpg
    CHRIS

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  3. #2
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    Default

    Mine looks OK, but it’s only a cheap Chinese copy though.
    sorry photos are upside down I tried to rotate but just came out the same.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #3
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    Default

    Your's isn't a K3.
    CHRIS

  5. #4
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    Default

    Chris didnt you own a CF741S? did you go Separate?
    SCM L'Invincibile si X, SCM L'Invincibile S7, SCM TI 145EP, SCM Sandya Win 630, Masterwood OMB1V, Meber 600, Delta RJ42, Nederman S750, Chicago Pneumatics CPRS10500, Ceccato CDX12



  6. #5
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    Not me Albert, I bought the K3 and then an A3-31.

    Felder have offered to replace all the flip stops which I have which I think is pretty good seeing the machine is about six years old but it is pretty obvious the problem has been there the whole time. I must be thick because I have never thought about checking them and it was only a chance reading of some stuff this morning that prompted me to do it.
    CHRIS

  7. #6
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    I didn’t get any flip stops with mine, might be best to just make my own.

    Cheers Andrew

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ. View Post
    I didn’t get any flip stops with mine, might be best to just make my own.

    Cheers Andrew
    You can have mine.
    CHRIS

  9. #8
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    Jun 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
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    Default

    I will also pipe up and say my flip stop on the K3 has the same issue. discovered it when I was cutting a tenon and found the the shoulders on the short side were a bit off from those on the wide side. you will note the same issue on FOG regarding the Felder saws. I think the flip stops are all built the same but there is no reliable way of making them square. My solution is to be aware of the problem and compensate for it by other means.

    Stan

  10. #9
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    Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Chris. I had a look at mine today. The is a possible reason why this occurs, and there is a terribly simple fix.

    I will show you the situation, and then I will show you the fix

    This is my flip stop ...



    How far out is it?

    The slider top ...



    This is the flip stop ..



    Now what does 3 degrees actually mean?

    I could square the flip stop with a 0.6mm shim under the front ...



    My first thought was to file the high spot ...



    I stopped as this would not work as there were more protrusions that could not be filed away (the shaped other side, as well as the plastic marker).

    So, what is 3 degrees? This ...



    And this is after my simple fix ...



    Like it?

    The solution was two layers of electrical tape ...



    It sides smoothly on the tape, which is unlikely to wear much. And if it does, it is easy to replace.

    Now the exercise also alerted me to this ...

    The fence at the edge of the slider is the same 3 degrees out ...



    Then it dips ...



    ... and rises ...



    Perhaps the problem is the aluminium extrusion?

    Or it may be the side table ...





    My table could be more coplanar with the slider. I will re-do this on the weekend and see how it affects the flip flop ... flip stop.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  11. #10
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    Derek, my guess is the flip stops are not bored true to the measuring face of the stop. I looked at trying to correct them as well but after looking at how they are made I didn't bother. Try putting the angle head on the table and see what it reads, I wouldn't be surprised to see 90.3 on the table top surface. I am going to Felder so more news after that. Apparently there has been some problems with flip stops on some Felder machines but in the other plane and I was reading that when I got suspicious and checked mine. I haven't checked mine in that plane and I will do that tomorrow at Felder.
    CHRIS

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Parks View Post
    Derek, my guess is the flip stops are not bored true to the measuring face of the stop. ...
    Chris, while it would be great for Felder to announce there is a replacement that now works, I think that the issue is mult-factorial. That is, the off-square is dependent on the straightness and evenness of the of the crossfence, as well as (in my case) how coplanar the side support has been attached with the slider. All affect each other.

    The tape shim I added squares the flip stop along the slider section, and that is relevant for accuracy in that area. However, it will go out-of-square further along simply because it rests on the fence, which moves 2-3 degrees.

    As I wrote earlier, I will square the side panel, and then we will see.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Visit www.inthewoodshop.com for tutorials on constructing handtools, handtool reviews, and my trials and tribulations with furniture builds.

  13. #12
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    Default

    Derek, must have been a long day. I think you mean 0.3 degrees not 3 degrees, as shown on your Wixey gauge or similar.

    Chris, If it was out 3 degrees you would have discovered it long ago one would hope! 3 degrees would equate to 5 mm out of perpendicular in 100 mm.

    0.3 degrees is 0.5 mm in 100 mm so still significant for fine joinery, or approx 0.1 mm on opposing faces or shoulders of a 19mm wide board / tenon.

    My surveying background comes of benefit at times especially one maxim "work from the whole to the part" and our obsession with controlling errors within accepted tolerances.

    How does this apply to a flip stop on a saw??? Read on in a separate thread, as this may assist in understanding how to limit errors in wood working.
    Mobyturns

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  14. #13
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    The error on one is near 2mm by eye and the other a bit less which is a fair bit. It is even more laughable that haven't twigged to it when I am extremley anal about all the fences in my workshop reading near enough to the same. I had a calibrated length of aluminium made and it is used on every fence if a re-set is needed to ensure they all cut to the same measurement. When you think about it if all measuring & fences are not matched within reason then test cutting is needed to ensure accuracy. It is not exact metrology but good enough that I can measure and cut without test cuts. Over the years I have reset the fences on the saw many times thinking it must be me and never looking further into it.

    Derek, there is no way that tape would fix the two worst ones in my case, the third one yes, it would fix that. It is a large error it be brought about by inaccurate machining not by the fence extrusion. I will do a more thorough check later on when I get a chance.
    CHRIS

  15. #14
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    They may have been made in far, far, eastern Europe!
    Mobyturns

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  16. #15
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    I have just returned from Felder after and interesting hour or so looking at flipstops, both mine and what they had in stock and could not find any that were exactly perpindicular in the vertical plane. Stefan the owner also brought up an interesting point, if the stop is sloped so the wood touches the bottom of the stop and the measurement is set up to that the fact that the stop is not vertical doesn't matter. I take his point but we both agreed that they should be vertical.

    My saw is six years old and the stops we were looking at while not as far out as mine are brand new stock so does this mean that Hammer has had poor QC all this time? it would seem so. If the top of the stop leans away from the blade it will not cause errors but if as mine does to top leans towards the blade that is when the errors creep in. He gave me three or four different stops, some from a Felder machine to try on my machine and we agreed that I will get my B in L who is a toolmaker to fix the dodgy ones and he is going to chat with Felder in Austria about the whole thing. I was pleased that we could arrive at an accomodation that suited us both and I will report back when more information comes to hand.
    CHRIS

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