Thread: SAWSTOP - The Argument

Whenever I fire up any kind of saw, my wife hovers nervously in the background - or at least keeps a very attentive ear out for any unusual sounds. Even if it never triggered a SawStop would be worth it to me just to help keep her stress levels down. Having said that, it is way out of my price range. Maybe in 20 years time I'll buy a second hand one that's done a lot of k's and has a bit of rust and just generally needs a good clean up.

Peter

Originally Posted by hcbph

Things like green wood/wet wood can fire the cartridge so there ware ways to turn the safety feature off. When it's off, it's nothing more than auy other cabinet saw - something that spins a blade.
Paul

You can lock the saw stop off , when you stop the saw it resets ( from memory ) but when you lock it off and do a test cut you get an indicator that says weather the stop would have activated, if the wood was too wet etc if its ok after a test cut you go back to normal operation

Originally Posted by DavidG

I hate to think of the stresses placed on the motor and gearbox from the sudden stop.
Is there a slip clutch to protect the motor.
What is the restart time and cost after it fires.

The stresses involved would hopefully have been allowed for in the design and maybe this is one of the reasons for the price
The replacement time is all in getting the old blade and al block out , (and changing your undies ) it took brendon after the demo between 1 and 2 minutes to get the old blade out and a new blade and safety block installed, though he has done this quite a few times, this is if you have a new blade and safety block on hand. Asked how long to get a replacement block was told you are supplied with a spare and they had an overnight package service available as well, so I reckon if you carried the spares, then your back in operation in minutes 30 at the most if it was the first time you activated it, and could have the spares replaced in days.
The cost as Brendon corrected me on the other thread is $100 plus the blade.

My question for you Brendon is when you set off the safety device you were holding the sausage and toughing the saw body thus completing the circuit, now if the sausage was ..say stuck on the wood you were cutting and not being held by you would that still operate the stop

Ashore the sawstop website has a few mpegs that a snag "insulated" by a piece of ply and the saw still triggered. I don't think it's dependent on a completed circuit. But more on the elector magnetic signature given off by flesh - and obviously dead flesh as well as live.

Originally Posted by Ashore

You can lock the saw stop off , when you stop the saw it resets ( from memory ) but when you lock it off and do a test cut you get an indicator that says weather the stop would have activated, if the wood was too wet etc if its ok after a test cut you go back to normal operation

So does that mean you really should be turning the mechanism off, doing a test cut, then possibly turning it back on if OK, for every bit of timber you're cutting? I know that there can be a bit of difference between piece that have been left to dry in the same place. So apart from the implicit question above, my question would be what difference in wetness is required before the mechanism cuts in/out? If I do a prick test (that's what this thread is about isn't it? ) and find it's 13% near the edge, is that OK? How about 15%? It's going to be a lot easier to do a quick moisture reading on some timber than test cutting each one! However, if the mechanism only cuts in at 20% or something like that, I can see that test cuts aren't going to be needed all that often.

Rob

From memory of a discussion about this over a year ago, I think the timber has to be pretty green for it to be even a potential problem.

Originally Posted by Toolin Around

To Daz and Ian because you both are coming at it from the same stand point.

Do you see these sorts of claims clogging up the courts in any industry - no. Yes you do see them but be honest they're relatively rare. So why suddenly do you think you're gonna see a made rush to the courts over a shop not having a SS. A bit of a stretch don't you think. It ain't gonna happen.

Tool'n
in part you're right, you don't see many civil cases of the sort Daz and I envision

In the main this is because after WorkCover become involved, the question tested is "does the employer's failure to provide a "safe method of work" constitute a CRIMINAL or NEGLIGENT act" — which for lower level "offences" is "punished" by a WorkCover breach notice — responsibility is established without the need to go to court which usually then leads to an out of court settlement of any civil lability.
Recent NSW examples that come to mind taht went to court involve employees killed when they fell through or off a roof


so the acid test will be how WorkCover views the SawStop



ian

Originally Posted by mcarthur

So does that mean you really should be turning the mechanism off, doing a test cut, then possibly turning it back on if OK, for every bit of timber you're cutting? I know that there can be a bit of difference between piece that have been left to dry in the same place. So apart from the implicit question above, my question would be what difference in wetness is required before the mechanism cuts in/out? If I do a prick test (that's what this thread is about isn't it? ) and find it's 13% near the edge, is that OK? How about 15%? It's going to be a lot easier to do a quick moisture reading on some timber than test cutting each one! However, if the mechanism only cuts in at 20% or something like that, I can see that test cuts aren't going to be needed all that often.

Rob

Rob i dont sell or endorse the saw just repeating from what i've been told during a demo by brendon at the newcastle wood show , I only did the post because brendon seams to have been unable to reply and I thought my limited knowledge might answer a couple of easy questions that were asked in previous posts and were asked at the wood show as well .

Originally Posted by Toolin Around

Ashore the sawstop website has a few mpegs that a snag "insulated" by a piece of ply and the saw still triggered. I don't think it's dependent on a completed circuit. But more on the elector magnetic signature given off by flesh - and obviously dead flesh as well as live.

Mathew thanks for that I was wondering, now the next question if you hit a borer or grub ( god forbid ) is that enough to set it off

I posted this in the other thread before Neil closed it, Brendan?

"will they ever have the saw at Gabbets in Adelaide so us crow eaters can get a proper oogle at it?"

I do find it a bit funny that you think replacing a blade and the cartridge is a terrible inconvenience timewise and expensewise. How much downtime would you have if one of your employees were to sever a finger? (is the cartrige really only $100?)

Having had my husband nearly sever his right index finger last November, I can tell you that these two items (the blade and the cartrige) are small apples when it comes to the costs and loss involved with an accident like that. I have gotten that way that I wont even use the tablesaw any more, I go to all sorts of rediculous lengths to avoid it, when I know its potential and have used it heaps in the past. I would LOVE one of these saws, and in fact, when the money permits in a few years time I will probably buy one.

Donna

I have a serious question - not just bagging the saw... My stance has always been is the technology fully tested. I don't believe it is. Part of the reason I believe this is that the saw has not been subjected to a great deal of environmental conditions. And they at sawstop are encouraging people to send their used cartriges (I believe only if they trigger for no apparrent reason) back at SS expense to read the data off it.

Everyone that lives close to the water in this part of the world will tell you that their electronic goods fail far faster than those that live in land away from the airborne salt. It's been drummed into me by many since I got here - never buy a used tv, computer... from someone near the water. It's much different here than it is in most of North America (were all the development took place) as the winds aren't constant and relatively high all the time (windows and doors are kept closed far more) so electronics don't suffer near as much. So my wonderings are what will be the result of a few years in these conditions for the SS electronics especially iwth the high humidity. I very much doubt it's been tested that extensively so they'll be relying on the users to let them know what happens. That sort of practice for a machine that cost about twice as much as the next machine in line is to me unacceptable with regards to these sorts of unknowns. But not surprising considering the underhanded legal tactic SS attempted in the US.

Related to that, what mechanism is in place to test the circuitry a few years down the road to see if the device is still active and functioning as it was designed to do from day one. I have never heard of any self testing or redundant systems built into the saw break. So in 5 years, unless the break fires when it's suppose to, how does the user know it's working correctly.

Originally Posted by Ashore

Rob i dont sell or endorse the saw just repeating from what i've been told during a demo by brendon at the newcastle wood show , I only did the post because brendon seams to have been unable to reply and I thought my limited knowledge might answer a couple of easy questions that were asked in previous posts and were asked at the wood show as well .

No problems. I'm pretty agnostic about it all and was just expressing a general question. I have a 10HB and won't be getting a SS. If I didn't have the 10HB, I wouldn't be getting a SS since it's too expensive. I have far more fear of kickback than of digit loss - perhaps incorrectly - and SS won't fix that.

I find the argument that you'll get sued null and void here in Australia since it's not a mandatory safety feature. End of issue. Suggesting that a business knew something better was out there and didn't provide it is just plain silly and indicates knowing nothing about running a business (fight'n words, dem ).

Personally, from what I've heard 5th and 6th hand (at least!), SS made stupid initial decisions in marketing. They've put a lot of people offside. Fortunately, people remember and the greatest inventions often never got anywhere for no better reason other than their time hadn't come or damn stupid starting decisions.

Again, controversially and personally, I hope SS stay on the scene for a little while then go away. Then someone with more business sense comes along and rejigs the idea and sells it so that it can be retrofitted on existing saws for a reasonable (ie. non-gouging) price. Eventually it will filter down and there will be cheaper versions as well (a la TS mitre gauges). Rejig in this sense includes changing the idea so that it does not require too many changes to an existing saw to work, like extra cast iron, etc. as well as not infringing the original patent.

Rob
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You can try and test the SS in the laboratory situation as much as you like, the final test is in the real world.

For the backyard woodworker, whether or not you're prepared to spend the extra $$$ for the SS, comes down to your gut feelings.

I feel that if you're prepared to spend the extra $$$ for the SS, you should also be prepared to spend $$ on tuition, regarding use of power tools.

Zelk

It is pretty simple to me.

If you have the money, like the saw and it makes you feel good about using it then buy it. If you don't think it is worth it or feel you would feel no safer using it don't. If it does not work and you cut your finger off, buy a really nice Felder with the payout money

Either way you are no worse off as chances are, if you cut yourself on a saw stop you would have cut yourself no matter what saw you were using, and until you did cut it off you were probably feeling great about about using your new safer saw.

The idea itself is great.

The cost is ..... [too much for me, however, if money was no object then......]

The initial marketing was woeful.

Thinking slightly differently, perhaps, particularly with the inferred idea that all should be using SS or that you could be legally irresponsible if you don't use one.............

The worker, student uses and gets used to the "comfort of the machine which can't hurt me" and the changes job, school, or uses a machine at home/mates place - do we have here a potential complacency problem?

In a classroom/workplace - "Hey, this is one of those saws which is supposed to stop when it hits flesh." "Let's ............"

What about all of the other machines in the shed which can bite me if I am inattentive, careless, go beyond my capabilities or attempt to do something really stupid.

Who knows, perhaps sometime in the future we will have a similar version for the hand-held circular saw, router, drill press etc.........

Woodworking can be dangerous - will we end up once again with legislation catering to the lowest common denominator and that this is now the new "must have", or will people, the government included, finally have to start taking some responsibility for their own actions and realise that you can't legislate for people's own stupidity.

Just thinking out loud,
Bob