Thread: SAWSTOP - The Argument

Lots of posts since my last visit. I will try to respond to all the questions I have found....

Originally Posted by hcbph

Here's an interesting thought for your electrical people. I know the hz of your electrical there is different than here. So in addition to the normal, will there be a power convertor or will the electronics work there without a problem? Just curious.

Paul

The machines that come into Australia are fitted with 240V, 50Hz motors. Or three phase 440V.

Originally Posted by Cruzi

What I would like to know is how much damage the brake does to the blade.

New blade, new cartridge.

Originally Posted by DavidG

I hate to think of the stresses placed on the motor and gearbox from the sudden stop.
Is there a slip clutch to protect the motor.
What is the restart time and cost after it fires.

When the mechanism is activated, power to the motor is instantly cut.
The housing of the saw is 'released' from the rise and fall mechanism and this it what allows it to drop below the height of the table so quickly and without damaging the machine.


I am not going to weigh into legal debates on this saw. I really hope that it never becomes an issue.

I reckon the arguments break down into the following:

Anything that makes a table saw safer is a good thing

No brainer. You cannot argue against that logic.

Does the Saw Stop make a table saw safer?

I don't have any stats on this, but it seems logical that the answer to this is similar to the debate regarding air bags, and before them seatbelts. There seems to be evidence that it does make them safer. If it doesn't function properly every time, that does not negate this. If the technology is unreliable, the worst thing (presumably) that will happen is that you are injured as badly as you would have been with no saw stop. We have to assume that a malfunctioning Saw Stop does not inflict a greater injury than a saw that does not have one.

Should I buy one given the tactics this company used in the US?

If you make decisions about devices that potentially affect your safety based on whether or not you like the person who invented them, you are being just a little bit foolish. This line of argument does not address the effectiveness of the device. It can be dismissed (in my opinion).

Other machines in my workshop don't have Saw Stop, so why get it for the table saw?

Because it makes your table saw safer. The fact that you now have one machine in your workshop that is safer than the others shouldn't affect your decision. I find it hard to see the logic in that line of debate.

Is the Saw Stop worth the money?

This question breaks down into two aspects: 1) Is the Saw Stop as good as similarly priced saws in the terms normally used to assess a table saw; and 2) Does the extra safety inherent in the saw justify paying a higher price for that alone?

I think you can only answer the first question if you were able to assess the saw with the Saw Stop feature removed. If you could say that the quality of the saw was commensurate with saws in a similar price range - then the Saw Stop feature is worth the asking price. If not, and say the Saw Stop tested no better than a saw priced around $2000, then you can isolate the price you are paying for the safety feature.

I think any person who has lost digits on a table saw would find it hard to argue that the cost is not worth the added safety.

Can I afford one?

Only you can answer that. I think that can also be dismissed in this debate.

Given all of the above, if I was buying a new saw in that price range, I would consider it but only if it was as good as other saws in the same price range. I wouldn't pay more than double the price of a similar saw to have the Saw Stop feature.

The cost consideration would be my biggest problem but if I was missing a digit or two then maybe I would look differently at it.

Cost wise, I bet the Chinese are considering it and how they can bypass any patents.

Originally Posted by Ashore

The stresses involved would hopefully have been allowed for in the design and maybe this is one of the reasons for the price

Correct. The machine has more cast iron and heavier duty bearings to allow you to continue to use the machine after the brake has been activated.

Originally Posted by Ashore

My question for you Brendon is when you set off the safety device you were holding the sausage and toughing the saw body thus completing the circuit, now if the sausage was ..say stuck on the wood you were cutting and not being held by you would that still operate the stop

Originally Posted by Toolin Around

Ashore the sawstop website has a few mpegs that a snag "insulated" by a piece of ply and the saw still triggered. I don't think it's dependent on a completed circuit. But more on the elector magnetic signature given off by flesh - and obviously dead flesh as well as live.

Originally Posted by Ashore

Mathew thanks for that I was wondering, now the next question if you hit a borer or grub ( god forbid ) is that enough to set it off

The machine is monitor a 3 volt current for a significant drop. The sausage alone will not cause the mechanism to activate. If I wanted to, I could feed that sausage through the blade, sitting on a piece of timber, and spray everyone around me with sausage 'meat'

When we do the demo, we need to keep a finger on the sausage. The sausage then acts as a conduit from me to the blade.
Considering I am much larger than a sausage, I have a higher electrical capacitance, or I will draw more voltage.

So a borer will not affect the mechanism.

Originally Posted by Ron Dunn

I don't understand why anyone objects to Sawstop.



Even though I don't have one, I admire the concept, and I applaud anyone who buys one. I don't feel put down, this isn't a competition. I don't feel harrassed, no-one is making me buy one. I do feel a little jealous, but heck, I feel a little jealous about a lot of tools.

Change the tool. Instead of Sawstop, let's say Philippe Marcou (sp?) plane. Great product. Very expensive. Not for everyone. Wish I had one. See the similarity? And see the stupidity of arguing AGAINST an obvious improvement in woodworking machinery?

There was a guy on this forum recently - sorry, I forget his name - who felt compelled to close his business after the shock of a table saw accident. I wonder what his feeling would have been if his saw was a Sawstop?

Originally Posted by mcarthur

So does that mean you really should be turning the mechanism off, doing a test cut, then possibly turning it back on if OK, for every bit of timber you're cutting? I know that there can be a bit of difference between piece that have been left to dry in the same place. So apart from the implicit question above, my question would be what difference in wetness is required before the mechanism cuts in/out? If I do a prick test (that's what this thread is about isn't it? ) and find it's 13% near the edge, is that OK? How about 15%? It's going to be a lot easier to do a quick moisture reading on some timber than test cutting each one! However, if the mechanism only cuts in at 20% or something like that, I can see that test cuts aren't going to be needed all that often.

Rob

The timber has be very green to set the brake off.

Also, the machine has a feature that can detect that it is cutting green timber, and simply turn the machine off, rather than set the brake off.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME THE TECHNICAL DETAILS OF HOW IT DOES THIS AS I SIMPLY DON'T KNOW!

I can speculate, though......
I reckon it is detecting a slight and irregular drop in voltage, rather a sudden and constant drop that a human would cause.

Originally Posted by Harry72

"will they ever have the saw at Gabbets in Adelaide so us crow eaters can get a proper oogle at it?"

Yep. They should be getting their demo machine within the next few weeks.

Originally Posted by Toolin Around

Related to that, what mechanism is in place to test the circuitry a few years down the road to see if the device is still active and functioning as it was designed to do from day one. I have never heard of any self testing or redundant systems built into the saw break. So in 5 years, unless the break fires when it's suppose to, how does the user know it's working correctly.

The system is constantly self testing. If there is a situation where the system is not working properly, the machine will not start.

If your machine is working, the brake system is working. (unless you are in bypass mode, or course.... )

Your other comments in this post were interesting (regarding different humidities, etc). I have requested further information from SawStop. Will post response here.

Interesting - thanks Brendan

The other point that I note is often repeated is the way that SawStop was introduced to the American market.

There is a lot of innuendo about how the inventor took the technology straight to the US Government and demanded that regulations be made so that everyone must have a SawStop machine.

Here is a very interesting article about the development and marketing of SawStop in the 'early days'.
http://www.designnews.com/ca6360672.html?text=sawstop

Yes all very interesting on a human interest story sort of "A Current Affair" level. But does it work or doesn't it?

Mate, I seriously doubt that is really stopping anyone from buying one, it's more likely they've made up their minds and are using it as another justification for their point of view.

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

The timber has be very green to set the brake off.

Also, the machine has a feature that can detect that it is cutting green timber, and simply turn the machine off, rather than set the brake off.

Thanks for that Brendan, that answers it perfectly. (As a practicing scientist, I'm assuming all the requisite tests have been made to ensure it "knows" the difference ).

Rob

Originally Posted by silentC

Yes all very interesting on a human interest story sort of "A Current Affair" level. But does it work or doesn't it?

Mate, I seriously doubt that is really stopping anyone from buying one, it's more likely they've made up their minds and are using it as another justification for their point of view.

I concur.
Just attempting to iron out inaccuracies, one at a time....

Originally Posted by mcarthur

Thanks for that Brendan, that answers it perfectly. (As a practicing scientist, I'm assuming all the requisite tests have been made to ensure it "knows" the difference ).

Rob

I guess so....
I don't really speak about this function much, as it remains a mystery to me as to how it works.

Time to get a bit more edumacated perhaps. I'll be back! With answers!

Originally Posted by silentC

Yes all very interesting on a human interest story sort of "A Current Affair" level. But does it work or doesn't it?

Mate, I seriously doubt that is really stopping anyone from buying one, it's more likely they've made up their minds and are using it as another justification for their point of view.

Its a good job you didn't try making money off your mind reading skills - they're not very good.

Well, if that is really the only reason you wont buy one, I've said all that needs to be said in my previous post:

If you make decisions about devices that potentially affect your safety based on whether or not you like the person who invented them, you are being just a little bit foolish. This line of argument does not address the effectiveness of the device. It can be dismissed (in my opinion).

Very, very odd.