Thread: SAWSTOP - The Argument

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

The other point that I note is often repeated is the way that SawStop was introduced to the American market.

There is a lot of innuendo about how the inventor took the technology straight to the US Government and demanded that regulations be made so that everyone must have a SawStop machine.

Here is a very interesting article about the development and marketing of SawStop in the 'early days'.
http://www.designnews.com/ca6360672.html?text=sawstop

It's personal opinion but it doesn't paint Gass in great light of saviour of the woodworking world. He demanded 8% royalties! That's a joke in any business especially when it's such a legal mine field of untested technology.

I agree with the manufactures when they say they're not responsible if the user is too dumb to understand that there is a no go zone around the saw blade and it is not to be violated for any reason.

Originally Posted by silentC

Well, if that is really the only reason you wont buy one, I've said all that needs to be said in my previous post:



Very, very odd.

You need to improve your reading comprehension as what I said in no way says it's the only reason I wouldn't buy a SS but it did seal it for me.

Maybe you need someone to make decisions for you - I don't. And I resent anyone who tries to force their ideas on me. It's called freedom of choice - have you heard of it.

Originally Posted by Toolin Around

It's personal opinion but it doesn't paint Gass in great light of saviour of the woodworking world. He demanded 8% royalties!

Hi Matt,
No-one has ever claimed Gass to be the saviour of the woodworking world. He has simply invented a (some would say 'worthwhile') safety mechanism for a saw that will activate if all else should fail. If you take a look at the machine that SawStop are selling, you will notice that there are many other safety features standard on the machine, certainly above and beyond the recommendation of Australian Standards.

I am not here to defend Mr Gass. I have spoken to him on occasion, but never asked him about his history or questioned him about what I have read on the internet.

But lets flip things around for a moment. 8% isn't really that much.

Let's say that you were looking at a cabinet saw from Brand X. Brand X offer a cabinet saw without a SawStop mechanism for $2,000, and they offer the same saw with the SawStop braking mechanism for $2,500. Theoretical figures, of course.
If Brand X sold the $2,000 saw, then Gass gets nothing. If they sell the $2,500 saw, then Gass gets 8%. $200 if it is 8% of retail price.

Brand X still pockets 92%, but have 'up-sold' their own saw with someone elses technology.

It would have been quite easy for Brand X to incorporate Gass's fee into their saw. Give people an option - do they want it or not?? What price is safety? Let the customer decide...

Unfortunately it didn't work out that way and Gass was forced to either give up, or go into manufacturing.

If you've read the article, you know the rest of the story.....

Originally Posted by Toolin Around

...... untested technology.....

BTW....I take objection to your repeated use of this term.

I know you have concerns about how the SawStop will perform near the ocean, or in areas of high humidity.

But it is a little harsh to say that the technology is "untested".

I received an e-mail today stating that SawStop have just sold machine number 10,500. From this, 316 replacement cartridges had been ordered due to human contact. There has not been a single case of the mechanism failing.

I will await the answers from SawStop re humidity, but until then, I think you may wish to re-evaluate your use of the term "untested".

It appears to be well tested in the lab, as well as in a woodworking environment. Or 10,500 woodworking environments, to be a little more precise.

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

So a borer will not affect the mechanism.

I just hate the way I am always discriminated against - is it because of my lack of hair or my short height?.

As I have said in previous posts, I think it is a good idea.

Would I buy one? I don't think it would fit my saw.

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

BTW....I take objection to your repeated use of this term.

I know you have concerns about how the SawStop will perform near the ocean, or in areas of high humidity.

But it is a little harsh to say that the technology is "untested".

I received an e-mail today stating that SawStop have just sold machine number 10,500. From this, 316 replacement cartridges had been ordered due to human contact. There has not been a single case of the mechanism failing.

I will await the answers from SawStop re humidity, but until then, I think you may wish to re-evaluate your use of the term "untested".

It appears to be well tested in the lab, as well as in a woodworking environment. Or 10,500 woodworking environments, to be a little more precise.

Absolutely correct with that reference - my apologies. I was saying it in the context of the time frame as to when the manufacturers were approached and had stated it was an unknown technology.

Still, to a lesser degree, there are unknowns as to what will make the break trigger. And when you combine that with different regions of the world where the SS hasn't been tested at all those unknowns increase - how much is also unknown.

I'd be surprised if your company isn't working closely with SS feeding them data on how that saw performs here cause they simple can't say they know. And as a scientist, I'd be guessing he has a strong desire to understand the unknown. If you're not, maybe you should encourage your customers to report back to you instead of SS. Start amassing data and then offer it back to them, at a price. Say 8% royalty fee for what should be considered valuable data. You may think 8% is fair but I bet Gass'll tell you to jamb it.

Lets look at this is a slightly different light. Say you bought a Ferrari and the air bag triggers when you're doing nothing out of the ordinary. You then found out that of the 10500 sold at least 350 of them had also trigged for "unknown" reasons. You'd be pi55ed wouldn't you. You'd be saying I payed twice as much for this car than the next one in line and I expect them to have done there home work and ironed out all the bugs before they sold it to me. I would hazard a guess that there would be a recall initiated if this actually did happen, but that's another story.

Edit Scratch the 350 unknown triggers... Rud was saying there were 350 genuine triggers. Safe to say there has been a number of triggers for unknown reasons but even I can understand if SS doesn't release those numbers.

Other than relative price differences what's different about the two scenarios.

Dont worry Woodborer, if someone is holding on to you at the time the mechanism will activate

Originally Posted by flynnsart

Dont worry Woodborer, if someone is holding on to you at the time the mechanism will activate

I've met Wood Borer.

I would never touch him, let alone hold on to him.


Thanks for your acknowledgement, Toolin. As promised, I will post feed back here.

Originally Posted by Me

I seriously doubt that is really stopping anyone from buying one

Originally Posted by You

Its a good job you didn't try making money off your mind reading skills - they're not very good.

Originally Posted by Natural Assumption

if that is really the only reason you wont buy one

Originally Posted by Somewhat Narky Response

You need to improve your reading comprehension as what I said in no way says it's the only reason I wouldn't buy a SS but it did seal it for me.

Originally Posted by Strange conclusion to draw

Maybe you need someone to make decisions for you - I don't. And I resent anyone who tries to force their ideas on me. It's called freedom of choice - have you heard of it.

If the politics of the guy who invented this thing affected your decision in any way, I find that very odd. Say you had decided that it was a great idea, it was worth the money and you could afford it, but you wont buy one because you don't like his approach to selling it. Odd.

But you don't think it's worth the money etc. So you're just using it as another justification for your point of view: "... and anyway, the guy is an asrehole". Odd.

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

Hi Matt,
No-one has ever claimed Gass to be the saviour of the woodworking world. He has simply invented a (some would say 'worthwhile') safety mechanism for a saw that will activate if all else should fail. If you take a look at the machine that SawStop are selling, you will notice that there are many other safety features standard on the machine, certainly above and beyond the recommendation of Australian Standards.

I am not here to defend Mr Gass. I have spoken to him on occasion, but never asked him about his history or questioned him about what I have read on the internet.

But lets flip things around for a moment. 8% isn't really that much.

Let's say that you were looking at a cabinet saw from Brand X. Brand X offer a cabinet saw without a SawStop mechanism for $2,000, and they offer the same saw with the SawStop braking mechanism for $2,500. Theoretical figures, of course.
If Brand X sold the $2,000 saw, then Gass gets nothing. If they sell the $2,500 saw, then Gass gets 8%. $200 if it is 8% of retail price.

Brand X still pockets 92%, but have 'up-sold' their own saw with someone elses technology.

It would have been quite easy for Brand X to incorporate Gass's fee into their saw. Give people an option - do they want it or not?? What price is safety? Let the customer decide...

Unfortunately it didn't work out that way and Gass was forced to either give up, or go into manufacturing.

If you've read the article, you know the rest of the story.....

I wanted to reread it but the link for some reason has gone dead. But my understanding of it was Gass was asking a hell of a lot for the device. What the manufacurers considered outrageous. There was more to it than 8%. Why, at that time in history, would you commit to paying that much to some unknown guy for something that no one could say would work in a real world situation. At that time, remember, there were three saws out there. Hardly what I woudl call well tested. Obviously today that's not the case but I can see why they told him to bugger off back then and then got hostile with him for trying to force it on them through legislation.

Originally Posted by silentC

If the politics of the guy who invented this thing affected your decision in any way, I find that very odd. Say you had decided that it was a great idea, it was worth the money and you could afford it, but you wont buy one because you don't like his approach to selling it. Odd.

But you don't think it's worth the money etc. So you're just using it as another justification for your point of view: "... and anyway, the guy is an asrehole". Odd.

Stop being obtuse. If you actually are interested in what I have said go back and read all of the comments in this and all the other SS threads and then respond when you know what my stance is. Until then don't expect me to explain it to you - I have no patience for deliberate ignorance.

Brendon my question purely from an engineers stand point how big does the person have to be if they are standing on an insulated ( rubber mat ) and not touching any other part of the saw but the blade to set it off, you say a sausage isn't big enough but a human finger is , now to my old engineers brain if the body was fully insulated from the machine and the blade touched your finger the instantaneous drop in voltage would be no greater than touching a sausage not in contact with a person in contact with the machine, unless the body was carrying a static charge
I know this device has been tested and have seen it in action but I can't find a list of the tests carried out and if as some do have a rubber mat in front of the saw and you or your clothing are not in contact with any other part of the saw so no circuit is completed will the safety device still work , and have you seen it do so yourself

Back to one of your earlier points Brendan, I wish that we could - choose the saw, and opt for the SawStop upgrade. It'd then be our choice whether we wanted a Jet SuperSaw, or a TS10L with or without SawStop, like we can choose whether to have a sliding table or not.

I gather this was the original intent. Perhaps as the saw gains converts, other companies will reconsider their position and have it as an option.

Originally Posted by Toolin Around

Stop being obtuse. If you actually are interested in what I have said go back and read all of the comments in this and all the other SS threads and then respond when you know what my stance is. Until then don't expect me to explain it to you - I have no patience for deliberate ignorance.

You really are quite a nasty piece of work when someone crosses you, aren't you?

OK, I'll try to keep the debate centred around your words rather than your personal characteristics. I'll try to keep it simple, because you seem to be having trouble following my point:

1. I suggested that nobody was seriously refusing to buy one of these saws simply because they didn't like the guy who invented them.

2. You popped your head up and offered your opinion on my mind reading skills. This logically led me to believe that a) you disagreed with my suggestion and therefore b) you HAD made up your mind not to buy one because of the guy's attempt to have it made compulsory to use one (let's hitherto refer to it as 'the event').

So maybe you can help me here, since my powers of comprehension are so poor, exactly what conclusion was I supposed to draw? Try to restrain yourself from personal insults if you can. I know it's hard.

3. You then said that 'the event' "sealed it" for you. Now, I know I'm supposed to be an ignorant cretin, but that reads to me as if you had already weighed up the pros and cons and decided against it. "Sealed it" for you implies that. Again, I repeat, IF the only reason you wont buy one is because of the event, then you are being just a little bit foolish. If this statement does not apply to you, then why respond at all?

No, I'm not interested in going back and reading your countless pages of waffle. I don't really care why you don't want to buy a Saw Stop. All I care about is addressing your rebuff to me.