Thread: SAWSTOP - The Argument

I want it to be understood that I'm not supporting the Saw Stop per se. I think it's a good invention that stands to save a lot of people major grief. I don't have an understanding of the technology and how effective it is across the board. Like most other people, when I saw the video for the first time I thought "wow, what a great invention". I think the demo is convincing enough to make it worthwhile looking into if you're buying a saw. I learned about the 'troubles' later but it didn't change my opinion of the device. I believe that is a rational and unemotional point of view.

I can't justify the cost myself, but as I said, even if I could I would not pay double the cost of a similar saw for the Saw Stop alone.

Nor am I suggesting or even supporting the notion that it should be made compulsory anywhere in the world, let alone here. I think that joineries and educational facilities should at least look at it in light of the extra safety it offers. I don't like over-regulation any more than the next bloke.

TA got up my nose, first with the "you're not very good at mind reading" remark, then with the "your comprehension skills suck" comment. Then he called me obtuse and ignorant. Those are fighting words. Of course I will come out swinging. I have changed my opinion of him as a result. He probably doesn't care; I wouldn't. But I'm not going to sit back and take it.

I maintain my position on it: if you rule this saw out purely because of the way the guy tried to make the blade stop device compulsory in the US, but are otherwise convinced that it is a good idea and within your price range, then you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. If it's the only thing sitting between you and a purchase, then you are being a bit foolish.

On the other hand, if you already have ruled it out on the basis of cost, lack of confidence in the technology, or believe that you don't need it, then that is a fine and rational point of view to hold.

Originally Posted by mcarthur

I'd better let Lignum, Toolin, et. al. get a word in .

Nah.... im just gunna get back in my little box where most would rather me be

Originally Posted by Toolin Around

Edit Scratch the 350 unknown triggers... Rud was saying there were 350 genuine triggers. Safe to say there has been a number of triggers for unknown reasons but even I can understand if SS doesn't release those numbers.

Genuine triggers = finger contact with the blade.

There have been other triggers such as people touching the blade with their tape measures

Originally Posted by Ashore

Brendon my question purely from an engineers stand point how big does the person have to be if they are standing on an insulated ( rubber mat ) and not touching any other part of the saw but the blade to set it off, you say a sausage isn't big enough but a human finger is , now to my old engineers brain if the body was fully insulated from the machine and the blade touched your finger the instantaneous drop in voltage would be no greater than touching a sausage not in contact with a person in contact with the machine, unless the body was carrying a static charge
I know this device has been tested and have seen it in action but I can't find a list of the tests carried out and if as some do have a rubber mat in front of the saw and you or your clothing are not in contact with any other part of the saw so no circuit is completed will the safety device still work , and have you seen it do so yourself

Ashore, I got confused halfway through your question.

A sausage on its own will not absorb enough voltage to activate the brake mechanism. A sausage that is being touched by a person suddenly appears to be a much larger sausage to the microprocessor that monitors the current. BANG! Activation.

I doubt a human finger on its own will activate the brake. But if it is still attached to the rest of the body (which is kind of topical for this thread) then BANG!

As to how big an object needs to be - I don't know. I know a sausage is too small and an 80kg bloke is big enough. I don't have access to any new born babies, but I will let my two year old touch it when I have a machine at home this weekend and see if it registers her touch (not while it is spinning.... ). I'm 99% certain it would.

Keep in mind that when I was doing the demos in Newcastle, I was wearing leather boots with thick rubber soles. I was not earthed. My hands were only touching the sausage and the timber that the sausage was sitting on.

From the SawStop manual;

A small electrical signal is induced onto the blade by electrodes placed around the arbor. Although this low voltage, high frequency signal is too small to feel, it can be measured by the detection system. When human skin comes into contact with the blade (or arbor), a portion of the signal is absorbed by the body due to the inherent electrical capacitance of the human body. As a result, the signal on the blade gets smaller and the detection unit recognizes this as contact.

Clear as mud?

Originally Posted by silentC

I maintain my position on it: if you rule this saw out purely because of the way the guy tried to make the blade stop device compulsory in the US, but are otherwise convinced that it is a good idea and within your price range, then you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. If it's the only thing sitting between you and a purchase, then you are being a bit foolish

I honestly don't think anyone is arguing with you on that point (not that I have noticed, but this thread is a long read). From what I have read, SOME people are saying that it would be A FACTOR for them in deciding to purchase the saw, but not the ONLY FACTOR.

Is using your like or dislike of the inventor, as a factor in purchasing rational and devoid of emotion? I would say no, but people being people, tend to connect to things emotionally and on a personal level. Just ask any marketing person, or turn on the TV and watch a few ads.

Originally Posted by silentC

I maintain my position on it: if you rule this saw out purely because of the way the guy tried to make the blade stop device compulsory in the US, but are otherwise convinced that it is a good idea and within your price range, then you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. If it's the only thing sitting between you and a purchase, then you are being a bit foolish.

On the other hand, if you already have ruled it out on the basis of cost, lack of confidence in the technology, or belief that you don't need it, then that is a fine and rational point of view to hold.

I fully agree with that. Leave the politics out of it and make up your mind on the substantive issues of performance, quality and cost.

Peter.

SOME people are saying that it would be A FACTOR for them in deciding to purchase the saw

Yeah, people are strange...

The previous link that I posted to the article about the history of SawStop appears broken. Here it is again.
http://www.designnews.com/ca6360672.html?text=sawstop


An interesting passage from that article;

Acting on a petition from Gass, engineers at the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission recommended that the government begin a “rulemaking process” that could result in mandatory safety standards for table saws. Days later, the agency’s commissioners shocked the power tool industry by concurring with the recommendation. They saw the wisdom in his petition. Suddenly, the ultimate outsider joined the game, and now he was holding a strong hand.

“Here we had an unbiased government agency saying these saws are unreasonably dangerous,” Gass says now. “So, yes, I did feel somewhat vindicated.”


To be sure, the decision could mean little for Gass’s tiny, barn-based business, known as SawStop LLC. Power tool makers undoubtedly will search for other ways to satisfy the Consumer Product Safety Commission, without using SawStop technology.

I don't think that Gass's petition was that all saws must have a SawStop device fitted. I think it was that saws should be safer. If this results in improved guards or similar, then it can't be too bad a thing, can it?
Speculation though...I've not seen wording in the actual petition.

Interesting Brendan (referencing your earlier post), in that case, what happens if the wood being cut (exceptionally green say, that could trigger the blade brake) was being held by someone electrically isolated from the timber.

I'm not proposing woodworking with gloves, but just out of interest, what would happen if you wore, say latex gloves and tried - would the saw still trigger on the timber, or would it only trigger if you got too close yourself and the saw cut you (through the glove obviously!) Thus you could cut wood that would otherwise trigger the mechanism yet still be able to leave the safety system enabled.

Originally Posted by Stuart

Interesting Brendan (referencing your earlier post), in that case, what happens if the wood being cut (exceptionally green say, that could trigger the blade brake) was being held by someone electrically isolated from the timber.

I'm not proposing woodworking with gloves, but just out of interest, what would happen if you wore, say latex gloves and tried - would the saw still trigger on the timber, or would it only trigger if you got too close yourself and the saw cut you (through the glove obviously!) Thus you could cut wood that would otherwise trigger the mechanism yet still be able to leave the safety system enabled.

Wow.

We are really getting into some "what if's" now.....

If the timber itself has a high enough electrical capacitance then it will activate. If not, then I guess that by touching the timber you are increasing the chance of activation.

You're right about the gloves though. The blade will cut the gloves, then sense your skin and activate.

Not often there is such an opportunity to really pick the brains of someone who either has indepth knowledge of a product, or can get it!

Originally Posted by Stuart

Not often there is such an opportunity to really pick the brains of someone who either has indepth knowledge of a product, or can get it!

...or BS his way through it.

Questions are fine. Happy to provide answers. If I know the answer I will deliver it straight away. If I don't know the answer I will find out for you.

Howdy Brendan,
Just curious, what are you hoping to gain or what have you gained so far, from this thread?
Cheers,
Zelk

Originally Posted by zelk

Howdy Brendan,
Just curious, what are you hoping to gain or what have you gained so far, from this thread?
Cheers,
Zelk

Zelk,

I wanted to create a thread so that everybody could argue about SawStop to their hearts content Any other time that SawStop was mentioned, the thread would disintegrate into a SawStop argument, rather than answering the original question.

I created this thread late one night after being persued by a member in another thread that asked for constructive criticism on how the SawStop cabinet saw could be best be adapted to the Australian market. All he wanted to say was that the saw was rubbish and a saw that he sells (or a company that he has close ties with sells) is infinitely better. Even though he has never seen a SawStop machine.

I'd had enough and started the argument afresh in its own place. Since then, he appears to have decided not to participate.

Originally Posted by mcarthur

[shock, more relevance] Actually, Brendan, do you know whether SS licenses the idea or technology from the inventor or other holding entity, or SS the company actually owns the patent?

I don't know for certain, but I would imagine that the inventor himself would own the patent for the braking system, and SawStop the company would own patents on the machine itself.
There are currently 17 individual patents on the machine, and quite a few more pending.

Originally Posted by mcarthur

Brendan has sold how many of these in Australia?

Eight now. Four in the last week.

Originally Posted by mcarthur

It's no use saying that it's only just become available - we've all purchased over the web before.

I disagree. Until two weeks ago, the only way people would know that SawStop was available in Oz is if they had read my thread on this forum, or come into our office to ask us directly.
As for buying over the web, SawStop would not sell their machine over the internet. And besides, I have tried to sell machines to Melbourne and people flatly refused to buy them as I was in Sydney. Imagine buying a machine and the seller being on the other side of the Pacific.

The machine debuted at the Newcastle show. Ads and reviews are only just starting to come out. It is hard for people to buy a machine that they are not aware of.